Bob, I understand, believe you and accept that. I appreciate Bob, that we might just have different perspectives and sometimes it can take a while for them to change and sometimes they never do I am not suggesting that your perspective needs to or should. I acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their own view point and they might be divergent. I appreciate that you have tried to view it through my lens and are having difficulty doing that and may never accept it. That is ok too. I am happy to go back to/revisit your earlier post and then come back with some fresh comments. I will also see what else I can find for you on Ramsay's change of heart re PVFS not being the same as ME.