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Is folic acid is like folate in terms of absorbtion and methylation effect?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by rachel, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. rachel

    rachel

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    Is folic acid is like folate in terms of absorbtion and methylation effect?
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, rachel.

    Folic acid is a synthetic oxidized form of folate that is used in nutritional supplements but is not found in natural foods that haven't been fortified with it. Some people are not able to convert it to the forms the body uses very well for genetic reasons, and then it can build up in the blood and may cause some problems, though there is not a complete consensus on that.

    The simplified methylation protocol uses both folinic acid and methylfolate. Freddd's protocol uses only methylfolate.
    Methylfolate is the form used in the methylation cycle. There is a methylation protocol in use that does incorporate folic acid. It is the one proposed by Dr. Vinitsky. He uses fairly large dosages of folic acid in his protocol, perhaps because the conversion efficiency can be low.

    Folic acid does compete with the active folate forms for the same transporters.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Hi Rich,

    I wonder if you saw this letter from Dr. Solomon on the link between adrenal fatigue and methylation: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_262/ai_n13675760/.

    The part that I found interesting is how much the adrenals rely on methylation to function. I have been taking a good amount of cortisol (20 mg.), but now that I'm taking some of the SMP supplements, I may need to cut back.
     
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    Thanks for letting me know about this letter. I may not agree with the details of all the connections Dr. Solomon draws, but I do agree that when methylation goes down, the HPA axis becomes dysfunctional in ME/CFS, and I'm hopeful that you will indeed be able to cut down on your supplementation of cortisol.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  5. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Ashland, OR
    Rich, is it unusual to get a response to just a 1/4 tablet of the NHF? Because I could hardly sleep at all Tuesday night.

    And how about this. I added 2 drops hydroxy B12 on Thursday, and 2 drops of methyl B12 on Friday along with 1/2 tab of MegaFolinic. On Thursday, I organized my kitchen cabinet and herbs. On Friday, I went shopping and organized my clothes closet and tried on different outfits for hours. This after being nearly housebound and sometimes unable to get out of bed! And I particularly suffered from lack of executive function - planning, organizing and execution of tasks.

    Although I only got 3 1/2 hours of sleep for three out of four of those nights, I didn't make the connection to the SMP - I never dreamed I'd respond to such a low dose. It was supposed to be a trial! I thought I was just testing them for tolerance.

    By Saturday, I started thinking that I had in fact kick started the methylation cycle, and googled up Dr. Solomon's article. I realized she had a slightly different take on things, but the point was that my adrenals might be working better because methylation is important to their function. That's when I figured out that the extra energy and insomnia might be from too much cortisol: last week I accidentally took a double dose of HC in the afternoon and it had a similar effect on me.

    Yesterday, I just took 5 mg. of HC in the morning. I went all day without napping although I did try to go to sleep a few times. By night, enough cortisol apparently washed out of my system, because I was able to sleep 8 hours, with three brief awakenings and only a little melatonin. Today I'll do the same thing, unless I get droopy and need to take more, and see if I sleep better. Then on Monday I'll visit my acupuncturist/MD. It will be interesting to see what my pulses show!
     
  6. rachel

    rachel

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    Hi Rich,
    Thank you for the information. Can you recommend a qualify brand of methylfolate/folate (if methylfolate and folate are the same material). From your explanation, correct me if I'm wrong, I guess Fred's protocol is safer but maybe there are other aspects so anyway I ask- What is considered the most secure protocol for methylation? Do you know if improving methylation process is considered better than heavy metals detox in terms of safety and duration's process?
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    Yes, some people have big responses to small dosages of the supplements in the simplified methylation protocol. Some people report that they have to start with "crumbs" of the supplements.

    This protocol is designed to address the root issue in the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. As such, it can correct various aspects that have been treated downstream using drugs or hormone supplements. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened with you HPA axis. Some people have reported similar things involving their thyroid hormone supplementation. They have had to decrease or discontinue it because they developed HYPERthyroid symptoms after starting the methylation protocol.

    You may have to adjust the dosages of the supplements to give the best results for your particular case.

    I recommend working with your physician with regard to decreasing the dosages of prescribed hormone supplementation.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Rachel.

    There are several brands of methylfolate that are fine. They include Metafolin, FolaPro, MethylMate B, and Quatrefolic.

    Methylfolate is a form of folate. As far as supplements are concerned, there are three available folate supplements:
    methylfolate. folinic acid, and folic acid. I don't recommend using folic acid, because some people cannot convert it to the active forms of folate very well. Also, it competes with the active forms for transport. And finally, it may have some negative effects, though there is not a scientific consensus on this.

    As far as safety is concerned, I recommend that a person work with their physician while on a methylation-type protocol.
    There are some possible adverse effects, especially in cases in which a person has certain comorbidities (other disorders in addition to ME/CFS). I prefer starting at low dosages and working up as tolerated. The protocol I have suggested is pasted below. Freddd's approach has been somewhat different, and you can consult his posts in the methylation section of these forums to see what he recommends, which has changed over time.

    Restoring the methylation cycle restores the rest of the sulfur metabolism, also, and that improves the function of the detoxication system. If the body burdens of heavy metals are not too high, the methylation cycle can be restored, and that will help to detox the heavy metals. If the body burdens are too high, the heavy metals can block the enzymes in the methylation cycle and related pathways. In that case, chelation of the heavy metals must be done before the methylation cycle function can be restored.

    The length of time required varies with the case, but it usually takes at least a few months to bring up the methylation cycle and glutathione.

    If you would like to find out more details, you might consider watching the video or looking at the slides at this website:

    http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/${weburl}

    You can get the slides by clicking on the blue type below the video. The video and slides are in English.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  9. rachel

    rachel

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    I still haven't seen the attached video but I'd like to know if it's also possible to do both processes, methylation and heavy metals detox, at the same time?

    In which brand it's technically possible to open the capsule and use just a part of the amount?

    Do you also treat in people using this method or can recommend on a doctor or a therapist?

    Rachel.
     
  10. alice

    alice Senior Member

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    No. CA, USA
    Rachel,
    Regarding methylfolate.
    I have used two forms that Rich talks about: FolaPro and MethylMate.

    FolaPro (by Metagenics) is L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate as Metafolin. It is in 800 mcg tablet form.
    Rich recommends starting at 200 mcg.daily, so these have to be divided into 4 pieces. The tablets are very hard and difficult to divide. I have a nifty, sharp, sturdy cheese knife that I use to divide the tablet, or you can smash the tablet on a cutting board and then divide into 4 portions. It's not an exact science, but I think it's close enough.. This product is available at various vitamin shops.

    MethylMate: ( http://www.holisticheal.com/methylmate-b-nutritional-supplement.html )
    Is a liquid alternative to FolaPro. It's in a dropper bottle. Rich recommends to start at 3 drops under tongue daily - 3 drops is a dosage of 210 mcg. $14.95/bottle. It is (6s)-methyltetrahydrofolate.

    Sorry - don't know about Quadrefolic

    alice
    [
     
  11. rachel

    rachel

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    Thanks, in my country I didn't find that kinds of supplements. Do you know if Solgar folate 800 mcg can be divided and if it's also recommended?
     
  12. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for your reply. It's been a week now, and I am amazed that I can just walk around. I mean, I was nearly bedridden a week ago at this time. And now I can do things. Like yesterday, I took my mom out to lunch for her birthday, driving from the South Bay to Portola Valley and from there to Half Moon Bay and back. And the night before, I made it to a family dinner in Menlo Park. I also watched an aikido class and played around a little after class. I think I might even be able to practice again someday. I don't know how soon, but I'm thinking weeks, rather than months. I need basic conditioning. And a job. And a life. And the ability to do normal things, which is coming back, thanks to you and Dr. Yasko.

    I've been sick for 18 1/2 years, very ill for the last 5 and desperately ill for the last 4 months. So you can imagine how I"m trying to wrap my head around suddenly being well. How well can I be? Will I be? Will it stay? I feel like my health is a mysterious chimera that comes and goes with a will of its own. I pray that it has come to stay. And if it's just a matter of a little nutrition, why not? I am quite amazed and profoundly grateful. Thank you so much for this Simplified Protocol.

    Mimi
     
    Christopher likes this.
  13. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    P.S. Regarding working with a physician and dosing advice. I do muscle testing on myself, as well as pulse reading, but to be sure, I visited my doctor yesterday. He confirmed that my pulses were stronger and we discussed my dosage. I sleep 7-8 hours on 5 mg. but only 3-4 hours when I increase my dose. So 5 mg. looks good for now, but we'll keep a close watch.
     
  14. rachel

    rachel

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    Regarding stearic acid, one of the FolaPro capsulae's ingredients -are there also negative opinions about this ingredient as about the vegetable stearate?
     
  15. rachel

    rachel

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    Is it necessary to do genetic tests before taking the supplements Alice mentioned above?
     
  16. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, rachel.

    Yes, Solgar folate is a brand of Metafolin. Yes, it should be possible to split or crush the tablets to get a smaller dosage.

    I'm a researcher, not a physician, so I cannot legally treat people. I do consult with physicians, if they wish.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mimi.

    This is really great to hear! :thumbsup: I pray that it will stay, too! That's even poetic! :D

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    O.K., Mimi.

    Rich
     
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, rachel.

    I realize that there have been questions raised about stearic acid and magnesium stearate, but stearic acid is a fatty acid that is found naturally in the body, and I don't think that magnesium stearate is absorbed well from the gut. Also, only small amounts are used in making tablets. These have been used for a long time in the manufacture of drug and supplement tablets. I've heard from one person who has a sensitivity to magnesium stearate, and in that case it should be avoided. Usually capsule and liquid forms of supplements don't have these additives, so those are possibilities.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  20. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Rachel.

    No, it isn't necessary. I do suggest that people run the methylation pathways panel (a biochemical panel) beforehand, but that isn't absolutely necessary either. It's helpful to run it to see if you have a methylation cycle partial block and glutathione depletion, so you will know whether the methylation treatment is likely to help you, and also to have baseline information for comparison later, to see how the treatment is going.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     

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