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Is fatty liver and raised liver enzymes a B12 problem ?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Hoops, May 16, 2012.

  1. Hoops

    Hoops

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    Hi Fred / Rich

    I have elevated liver enzymes (e.g. ALT about 3 x max range) and ultrasound scan showed my liver is "moderately fatty". Blood testing has ruled out all the standard causes of this and I don't drink any alcohol. Also, my serum ferritin has been about 20% above max range for a while.

    Do you commonly see this in people with B12 deficiency ? I have a range of standard B12 deficiency symptoms.

    Many thanks !
  2. Merry

    Merry Senior Member

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    This is a subject I'd like to know more about, too, so thanks, Hoops, for the thread. My mother had a fatty liver (plus many ME/CFS symptoms but never diagnosed), and she never drank. She was diagnosed with a fatty liver in 1970 and told that nothing could be done and received no follow-up care for the problem.
  3. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Interestingly, some of the microRNA abnormalities the Bond Uni crew found in ME/CFS are also found in some liver problems including "fatty liver" (whatever that may be). Wonder if there's actually a connection or if it's another random thing. Can't say I understand much at all about this stuff. :confused:
    ukxmrv and merylg like this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hoops,

    I went through a 5 year period of raised liverr enzymes around 1990. I insisted to my doc that I needed alternative drugs that didn't contain APAP. After complete dicontinuance from 8 doses a day the liver enzymes became normal in several years. As 60% of all the b12 in the liver (30% of all the b12 in the body) is in the mitochondria of the liver powering the cells to do their job I can see where low b12 could damage the liver. As mb12/adb12 and cofactorrs allow widespread healing it might be worth a try. As recovery from CFS/FMS can largely happen in a year with the active b12 protocol properly applied, it would be interesting to see. I have been speculating on what would happen to the liver if deprived of the adb12 that powers it.
  5. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    There is an association between choline deficiency and non-alcoholic fatty liver. I believe choline is involved in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine via the BHMT pathway. Have you checked your homocysteine levels? I currently take PhosCol upon recommendation by Life Extension Foundation for liver protection.

    Very high levels of ferritin could be an indication of hemochromatosis.
  6. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    Hi I have nonalcoholic fatty liver and I also have high b12 (above normal range) in routine bloodwork last year

    can't figure myself out
    docs don't care about any of it.........if tests are normal they say its nothing, if tests out of normal parameters they seem to think its nothing most of the time.....
    allyb likes this.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xrayspec,

    Abnormally high b12 in the absence of supplementation that would cause it to be high often indicates liver damage and that perhaps the liver cells are dying and releasing they cobalamin to the blood.
  8. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I agree with Fredd.

    One often ignored cause of liver problems is viral hepatitis. A simple and inexpensive blood test looking for antibodies for Hepatitis A, B and C is something people could do every few years just to be on the safe side. That and get vaccinated for Hepatitis A and B.
  9. Hoops

    Hoops

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    Thanks Fred - I started the active protocol a few days ago, so will probably be coming back to you with some questions along the way if that's ok. I will retest liver enzymes periodically and let you know.
  10. Hoops

    Hoops

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    Thanks Nanonug. No I haven't checked homocysteine. I've been taking sunflower lecithin for 8 weeks under the simple methylation protocol (just switched to active) which I see contains PhosChol. It looks like you take a higher quality version. Yeah I tested negative for hep A,B,C and hemochromotosis.
  11. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Hi SOC, can you point me to where you read this?
    Here's an explanation of "fatty liver"...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_liver

    Thanks Hoops for starting this thread, as I have this problem too :(
    It showed up on an Abdominal Ultrasound. I had mildly elevated Liver Function Tests at the time. My liver had a coarse appearance too, suggestive of cirrhotic changes. Had a bunch of further tests to rule out causes of teratogenous liver. These tests were OK. They are just going to monitor my LFTs.

    I'm hoping that B2 (Riboflavin) & tiny amounts of Manganese are going to help. I am also trying to take CoQ10 and tiny amounts of B12. I am very sensitive to most supplements, so I am constantly adjusting my doses according to any adverse symptoms. Nothing is simple...sigh...
  12. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    I was trying to figure out the research brought to our attention in this thread:
    http://phoenixrising.me/forums/inde...-study-on-microrna-markers.17324/#post-264547

    I found a site that showed disease associations with microRNA deregulation. http://www.mir2disease.org/ You can search either the microRNA and find disease associations or search a disease to see the microRNA deregulations found with it so far.

    I looked up the microRNA abnormalities shown in the above study. I did not report that information here at PR because it would be very, very easy to misinterpret and freak some people out. :eek: It is important to realize that just because some disease has one microRNA deregulation in common with ME/CFS, doesn't mean that we are more prone to that disease. What it might indicate is that there are some common dysfunctions that can help us better understand our illness.

    I haven't yet seen a lot of associations with decreased microRNA like we have. A lot of what has been studied so far are cancers which seem to have increased microRNA. It will be interesting to see how this information pans out.

    Some microRNA commonalities with liver problems are:
    · miR-21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRN21#Mature_miR-21)
    o Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD)
    · miR-17-5p
    o primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC)
    · miR-103
    o NAFLD
    · miR-152
    o cholangiocarcinoma (causal)
    o hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC)
    · miR-223 (miR-223 is a hematopoietic specific microRNA with crucial functions in myeloid lineage development. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir-223
    o HCC
    o PBC
    merylg likes this.
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I had elevated liver enzymes too, about 6 months ago, indicating fatty liver. At the time I was suffering from high cortisol due to overdosing on adrenal supplements. I could barely eat or swallow pills, so I was missing my usual dose of Thorne Multi IV (which has active B12 and folate among other things). My MCS also started getting worse indicating problems with liver detox.

    When I started feeling better, I resumed the Thorne and got retested. The liver enzymes were back to normal and my MCS improved.

    There is also 100mg of choline citrate per six Thorne pills. I'm taking two, so that would be about 33 mg per day.

    When I looked up fatty liver, the info I found said it's basically the same as cirrhosis of the liver, but without drinking alcohol. It's supposed to be reversible if it doesn't progress too far. But no info on how to reverse it.

    I was assuming the fatty liver was a B12/folate/glutathione problem. Don't know about the choline part.
  14. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    fredd and nanonug---that is interesting about high b12 and liver probs.....huh, is there research a mainstream doc would believe in I could give him to indicate that?
    thanks for the information btw

    so what does one do about that?

    and right, I don't supplement b12 cuz I felt bad from any form of it, even tried pure b12 injections Cheney prescribes so I dont know why my b12 would be significantly above normal

    so does that mean I am not absorbing enough b12? but what to do if I dont feel good supplementing it and don't absorb it.
  15. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

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    I have problems with fatty liver as well. For me it seems related to a familial tendency towards type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. If I don't eat a low carb diet and cut out all simple sugars I will gain about 10 lbs in my mid section and my liver enzymes will creep up. My cholesterol profile will also get out of whack.

    I think when my metabolism was normal before I got CFS, I had more resilience when it came to this stuff. I could eat things like pasta and some sugars and not gain weight/cholesterol/liver enzymes. I will also get more easily hypoglycemic than before, which I have learned is an early indicator for insulin resistance. Lack of sleep will exacerbate it. Now, if I stray from my diet for more than a week it is pretty noticeable. Also, not being able to really exercise has been a big problem too.
    AFCFS and merylg like this.
  16. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    After my physician visit early in the year, her staff called me with my test results. Among them was elevated ALT liver enzymes for which she said to take milk thistle. Does that mean I have non-alcoholic fatty liver disease? They didn't seem concerned.

    I have an extreme B12 deficiency. I am assuming that I also have an extreme B2 deficiency, based on the controversial theories of Christine.
    AFCFS likes this.
  17. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Have a look at this MedlinePlus article: Vitamin B12 level. Scroll down to "What Abnormal Results Mean". This is government-sponsored medicine. Can't get anymore mainstream than that!

    Life Extension Foundation has a nice write up on Cirrhosis and Liver Disease.

    B vitamins all work together. For this reason, and in my opinion, it is always better to supplement with all of them at the same time. As basic nutritional and methylation support, I currently take Pure Encapsulation Multi t/d.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  18. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    thanks a lot nanonug!!! going to investigate....
  19. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    Hey Nano, how do you purchase that multi? seems like I can't look at the price unless I register as a healthcare pro.
    I have mixed feelings about buying a multi B because I have such bad luck with supplements and not tolerating the b's in any form , but I havent taken a multi B for many years so maybe could try it again in small amounts to start out, do you know if there are any good liquid multiB's out there, could control the dose better.
  20. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I usually purchase it from PureFormulas. I think they sell all Pure Encapsulation products.

    I don't know about liquid B's but you could maybe try multi's that recommend several capsules a day. You would then start with just one capsule, slowly increasing to more capsules depending on your reaction. Something like Pure Encapsulations Nutrient 950 with NAC, for example. Pure Encapsulation also has a page where they list all their methylfolate containing products.
    xrayspex likes this.

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