The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
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Is bone broth protein bad for methylation?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Tuskentank, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Tuskentank

    Tuskentank

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    I've seen that @Freddd talks about the need to remove glutathione precursors, but was wondering if bone broth protein qualified as a glutathione precursor? Would this result in an adverse affect on B12 stores? I'm making reasonable progress on the methylation protocol, but still have a very sensitive stomach, so the bone broth protein would be very useful.

    I can only tolerate 2x 650mg betaine HCL per meal, anymore and it makes the constipation worse and drives methylation down the wrong pathway. This isn't enough to improve my MMC.

    However, I added two malic acid capsules today, which helped except for burning irritation in my still sensitive stomach. I was hoping the bone broth protein could heal that, providing it did not affect methylation.
     
  2. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Freddd has been a wonderful asset to this community, but having read through a large number of his posts, as well as richvank's, it seems he has a more exotic set of SNPs than most of us and that what works for others doesn't work for him and vice versa.

    My family has been working with methylation nutrients for 8 years under the care of doctors who are well versed in the dynamics.

    First of all, even though we share genes, our needs are different, as we have differing SNPs and environmental factors - exposures to stress, toxins and infections, so a canned approach just doesn't work, it needs to be individualized based on your labs. The Genova Diagnostics NutrEval is the best test out there for most people, though an HDRI methylation panel is great if you have a doctor who knows how to properly interpret it.

    Removing glutathione precursors is not a good idea. You need to be making glutathione for many reasons, including its ability to latch onto toxins and help your body get rid of them and its role as an antioxidant and recycling antioxidants.

    To make it, you need adequate B vitamins and amino acids, including methionine, glycine, glutamine, and cysteine. Bone broth contains the amino acids.

    One caveat is that you don't want any old bones - depending on where the originating animal was raised, heavy metals absorbed by the bones during the life of the animal could have leached out during the cooking process, along with the good nutrients, so you need to use organic sources.

    Glutamine and glycine in the bone broth can help in rebuilding your gut lining. You might also look into probiotics and probiotics - constipation may be more due to your microbiota. Or you might need to encourage better bile production. Methylation may affect the quantity of toxins you're trying to excrete, but it doesn't otherwise have a big impact on intestinal function. Its best to ensure your entire GI tract is working optimally so you can get rid of toxins rather than reabsorbing them - gall bladder function, pancreatic function, microbiome, adequate water, etc.
     
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  3. Tuskentank

    Tuskentank

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    Thanks, @Learner1, it's just I have read accounts of people improving their digestion on this protocol(?)

    The explanation by Freddd was that it catalyses B12 into a B12 glutathione derivative and effectively takes it from where we need it, so I'm still a bit confused as to this rationale versus the need to supplement glutathione or precursors.

    My gut is a major issue, and improving in fits and starts, my GI tract is usually sluggish, but sprung into life today when the malic acid burned my stomach (and cleared my constipation temporarily). I cannot figure out my gut issues other than to believe a pathogen exists in my stomach affecting stomach acid production. Bizarre I know but I am otherwise at a loss to explain this.

    I think I need to at least try the bone broth. I really appreciate the response as well. It is organic bone broth, and if I could find a probiotic that I could take with SIBO C, I would be all over it. I'm awaiting NutrEval bloods being drawn as well, so that is ahead of me.

    God bless you.
     
  4. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    No worries... I feel your pain... We've dug through a lot of gut issues over time.

    As long as you're doing the NutrEval, do a GI Effects test from Genova, too. Or a DiagnosTechs stool test.

    You need to look at the entire digestive system from end to end... what goes in, what interacts with it and what goes out. You might look up the "4R protocol" and work through it. The Food Intolerance Bible by Anthony Hayne has been an invaluable resource to us, with lots of self-diagnostic quizzes to help you trap your problems and fix them.

    Given what you've said, its likely you have one or more food intolerances inflaming your gut, and then causing leaky gut, systemic inglamnayion, autoimmunity, and translocation of genes. Not good... Getting rid of them is key.

    Gluten and grains are likely suspects, even corn, quinia or rice which are supposedly gluten free. Milk, eggs, nightshade vegetables, citrus fruits, etc. can be culprits, too, as well as soy and any other crop heavily sprayed with RoundUp during cultivation/harvesting. Cyrex Labs has tests for many of these.

    The health of the tissues along your digestive tract is important. Reducing inflammation caused by certain foods while repairing with nutrients is critical. Amino acids and lipids build tissue and other nutrients support the growth of healthy tissue. An oral, transdermal, sublingual, and/or IV supplement program can be helpful.

    Finding and removing parasites, like h. pylori, blastocystis hominis, roundworm, tapeworm, pinworms and fungi like candida is important. Identifying the exact culprit(s) and using botanical or pharmaceutical tools with short term dietary modifications targeting them would help.

    Then, you need to have adequate stomach acid, digestive enzyme production by the pancreas, and adequate bile production by the gall bladder and liver. If you don't, find out why and target the root cause and don't just bandaid the problem.

    Your liver needs to work properly, with adequate nutrients to filter and metabolize what what you in jest and to rid the body of waste products from biochemical processes and toxins. If it has an infection or lacks nutrients or is overwhelmed by too big a job to do, you can be in trouble. Watching serum ferritin, AST, ALT, GGT, and looking for infections and heavy metals will identify issues, while a liver supporting nutrient protocol, including glutathione precursors (glutathione doesn't stick around long, so better to make it and recycle it steadily than to supplement it directly) is helpful in reducing unpleasant symptoms and averting serious disease.

    Looking up Phase I, II, and III nutrients will help you understand the needs - here's an example...

    https://thedetoxdiva.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/liverdetoxpathways-e1402779590734.png

    Also, eating a high fiber diet or supplementing with prebiotics helps support waste removal.

    Then, you can look at probiotics. You may need to start with very few then add to increase tolerance. And likely rotate between them. Ones that would be good to try are Xymogen ProbioMax, Pharmax/HLC High Potency, PrescriptAssist, Equilibrium, and Mutaflor or Symbioflor. You can also strategically alter your diet to encourage the good guys and discourage the bad guys, but that's an advanced topic...this is plenty to start with.

    Best of luck to you (and to be clear, I'm not a doctor, just a patient like you... so I say this with all the usual disclaimers).
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  5. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Hi Tuskentank - I agree with Learner1. Glutathione is very, very, important to everyone, but even more for people with cfs. Improving methylation is helping me a lot and has been for 3-4 years now.

    Why Freddd thinks glutathoione is somehow harmful I don't understand. If the methylation cycle is improved, in any way, the body can't help but make more glutathione.

    So if you improve methylation, you WILL make more glutathione and the more you improve it, the more glutathione you make. So it makes no sense to me that taking glutathione precursors or increasing glutathione, would somehow be harmful to methylation, by interfering with or catalyzing B 12. Here is a diagram of the methylation cycle.

    If you look at the bottom of the right column, you will see glutathione as the end product of the trans sulfuration pathway that is fed by the methylation cycle. I think one of the main reasons people feel better improving methylation is because it does boost glutathione as well as do many other good things for the body.
    upload_2017-9-1_12-5-40.png

    EDIT- I also agree that the gut is absolutely crucial to improving one's health in cfs.

    All the best, Jim
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  6. Tuskentank

    Tuskentank

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    @Learner1 , thanks again, I'll look for that book. I have GI Effects ordered, but it says to stay off antibiotics for two weeks. I'm taking Allimed, so not sure if that counts as an antibiotic? It's why I haven't done anything g yet. I really miss my probiotics, but water kefir and milk kefir both made the constipation worse.

    I'm in a zero starch diet temporarily, cut out grains and potatoes first of all.

    Trying to get the MMC working again, methylfolate sometimes kick-starts this and other times seems to do nothing. Will try the bone broth tonight, and see how I get on.

    Removing the last of my amalgams on Monday, so getting the gut sorted to prepare for ALA chelation in 3 months time.

    Would love to add probiotics back in, but see a holistic nutritionist on Saturday, so am waiting for that meeting first.

    @ljimbo423 , that's a fantastic chart to monitor the different pathways. I seem to do okay with sulphur foods, but miss my broccolli and sprouts. Been taking Atrantil now for two weeks and Allimed, but just started the zero starch diet. Will add probiotic enemas to support the good guys. I've read b longum supports the MMC, so will look for that strain and use resistant starch and FOS to give it a boost first.

    Thank you both again, God grant you healing and happiness.
     
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  7. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    great tips from @Learner1

    Consider adding some fermented foods, specifically Kimchi w l sakei... Dr Lynch @ UCSF has done research (2012, links in the blog below) that found L Sakei probiotic has a beneficial impact on sinuses and throat.. (My sense is that it would extend to the gut, too, but that was not in the scope of her study.. ) My chronic sore throat roared out of control this summer.. It was like a mini-mono that came out of nowhere... I started gargling w diluted kimchi juice from one of the recommended brand (below; I used Sinto) and it had a dramatic, positive effect on my throat... It's back to the usual scratchy, swollen baseline.. the lymph nodes are not at all swollen anymore..

    read this for more info...
    http://lactobacto.com/tag/lactobacillus-sakei/
     
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  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I used bone broth twice daily for the years I was correcting my methylation. Also, during that time I was using footbaths for detox, with bicarb. I started adding some of my other powdered supps to the footbaths. That included malic acid. And potassium, when I was needing very large amounts of both. worked a treat. I've written a blog post re footbaths.
     
  9. Tuskentank

    Tuskentank

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    Hi ahmo, thanks for this. I'm working with a nutritionist who uses rife machines and muscle testing, etc now and she used a device called an Asyra to tell me I had Lyme's disease (I found a tick a few years back on my leg). I've been taking 3 tsps of Allimed a day, and although my stools are still hard and pebbly, I am able to go to the toilet at least once a day.

    I've decided to eat more rather than less as I was growing weaker and this has helped the constipation. Going to add teasel root next, but finding the costs are becoming prohibitive.

    I noticed you had worked hard and well on the gut before. I can digest food okay now using a combination of malic acid, betaine HCL, digestive enzymes and bile acid factors. Was considering adding in a probiotic as I feel a weird lightly inflamed section in my bowel (lower left of below belly button). Was wondering if you know of any good Probiotics?
     
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Tuskentank I've chosen my probiotics based on histamine. There are a range of things that increase histamines.I also started taking one sort when my weight kept increasing. I don't know whether it helped, I think my weight loss had to do w/ changing the type of nuts I was eating and decreased appetite for a period. The one that's been shown to help in weight loss is L. gasseri. I alternate with a mix that contains no histamine-producing strains, made in Australia, and Prescript-Assist soil-based. I'm not taking them everyday, but self-test and take when my body asks for it. Maybe 3x/week.
     
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  11. Tuskentank

    Tuskentank

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    Thanks ahmo. I have the opposite problem though, I cannot put on weight. Was doing okay until yesterday, when I ate a bucket load of parsnips, waaaay too much carbs and feel really sick after eating now. Heard the bacteria going mad in my small intestine, but the damage was done.

    So frustrating, but I'll cut the carbs back for a while. Added in cheese made from raw milk for calories as I was feeling constantly malnourished. I know dairy isn't good for many, but I can't make my calories up and can't tolerate more than 2 betaine HCL but I add 1500mg malic acid at a time. Think that's helping digestion, should do anyway.

    Been reading about a few different Probiotics that are apparently good for motility so will look into them. Strange thing is, I can go to the toilet every day again, but it's solid lumps, still some bits of food in there, which may be an issue with not enough good bacteria after the stomach. Maybe my stomach is emptying too quickly?

    GI effects on its way to Genova so I'll know more hopefully soon.
     
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