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Is Anyone Else Scared of Rituxan?

Messages
25
Location
Canada
To get back to Rituximab, I really think each person has to do a cost-benefit analysis for themselves. By 'costs' I don't just mean financial costs, just as I am obviously not talking about financial benefits alone. And it all boils down to how sick you are. @Sidereal talked about this earlier, and I want to add a few of my thoughts on this.

First of all, I think it is almost impossible for people with milder CFS to relate to those with severe/very severe CFS. When I first got sick, I thought it was bad. Yet I could still finish my dissertation and get a job. When I first had to go on long-term disability, I could still take care of myself and my dog. Yet I was approved for disability without a problem. I lost a lot of income because of it, but that was the cost of my pushing myself too hard.

Anyways, at that point, I couldn't imagine getting much sicker. In the back of my head I must have thought that I was just tougher than bedridden patients. Have I learned my lesson (and paid for my backheaded hubris) the hard way!!! Most, if not all, of us are tough and try to pretend being healthy as much as possible instead of pretending to be sick (I read this somewhere else and found it very fitting). As @Sidereal put it more eloquently, it's unbelievable and unimaginable how much worse things can get with ME/CFS unless you've been there yourself.

After my trying to return to work ended in my getting catastrophically worse, I am finally aware of how bad this illness can get. I am also aware of the few things I still can do and don't take them for granted. Such as typing this post (lying down, of course, in darkened room) or being able to walk to the bathroom as often as needed and the kitchen as often as necessary to not become too underweight. I can still talk on the phone to one person a day for up to 30 minutes almost every day and watch a movie (at my house) with a friend about once a month. I can sit up for about 30 minutes on most days. Sometimes more, oftentimes less. So I am much better than Rebecca was when she tried RTX, but I am definitely at a point where death doesn't scare me at all. It's living like this or worse for the next 40 or so years that scares the 'TMI' out of me.

Would I try RTX if offered by someone with experience in using it? I think I would. My biggest fear would be of getting sicker than I am now, in which case I would probably need full-time care, an IV feeding tube, and other than that live in complete isolation. In that case I would probably try to find a way to end my suffering forever. And we all know that quite a few of us have gone that route. Certainly more than 1 in 25,000 very severely ill patients.

But the potential upside is so much bigger! I would be grateful for any improvement. To think I could get to 50% or 80% of my pre-illness activity levels is, actually, something I can't even imagine at this point. Being able to take my dog for a 30 minute walk every day would already mean the world to me (especially because I live five minutes away from the beach!). Anything beyond that seems too unreal.

This post has already gotten way too long for my abilities, so I will have to leave it at this for now.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I am a scientist at the NIH and was involved in the P2P process and conference. I don't know who is right but there is a big disconnect somewhere because all the NIH grant people I talked to during P2P said there is money for ME/CFS research they just don't get many requests for clinical studies or they turn them down because their grant and research proposals are poorly crafted.

So I'm not sure who's telling the truth but I think that Dr. Chia hasn't really tried to do anything serious and developed a proper clinical research study and asked for money.

A lot of ME/CFS experts just don't get their acts together and it's annoying. They usually don't get money because they are sloppy and don't do good grant proposals, not because the NIH doesn't want to give money.
I can't think of a way to put this politely. Someone is lying to you, or is lying to the people who passed along those claims. Dr Lipkin is given grants to study all sorts of interesting things, but his application for a grant to study ME patients was turned down. It is now known and undisputed that it was turned down solely because a reviewer felt that ME is a non-biological disorder and funding biological research for it would be wasteful.

From what I recall that reviewer has been shown the door, but this happened in the past year or so, and was probably happening for far longer before that. I also have not heard of any attempts by the NIH to rectify the inappropriate past refusals of grants.

And even biomedical researchers who do get funded seem to be walking a pretty thin line ... such as finding a way to do proper ME research while officially using the Fukuda criteria, or giving lip service to CBT and GET even though their approach to the disease is completely contradictory to those treatments.
 
Messages
171
Location
London
I think people need to drop the 'chemo' concept this really is associated more with generalized relatively indiscriminate cytotoxicity of which Rituxan does not possess. This is not like taking some form of relatively non-targeted chemical poison. It's only often mis-perceived as 'chemo' due to its primary application in Oncology.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
So I just don't believe that the NIH is against ME/CFS research, but they want a quality grant proposal backed by good initial small scale studies.

Would you believe NIH is against real ME research if you read it in their own words on their own letterhead?

Straus_001.jpg


Straus_002.jpg
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
I would have Rituximab today, if I coud.
The way I see it, there are worse drugs with higher risk profiles than Rituximab, and my current situation is bleak. Honestly, if it was much more risky, I would probably still have it and take that chance, because the illness as it is is so awful.

I'll tell you what my quiet little fear is, that I try to pretent doesn't exist:
Rituximab gets approved, I go to the hospital, have the treatment, wait the alloted time, and I don't get better. It looks like the majority of patients with an ME/CFS diagnosis respond, and I am confident in my diagnosis, yet there are a portion of people who seem not to repond - some probably have the same disease but it doesn't work on them for some unknown reason, and some others may have some other disease. But I dread the idea of ending up in that group, even though the numbers are probably stacked in my favour. Still, that is my fear.

If I am lucky enough to have the drug and get better, then I will try to do what I can for those in the unlucky non-responder group. I think it's important they are not forgotten.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
Well now that the IOM report is smack in the face of HHS, NIH, CDC, FDA, etc lets see how things change. They spent over $1 million for the report and now they have their answers.

I fought very hard during the P2P to show the powers that be at NIH that this is a very real disease. They saw first hand when I talked with them that I'm a scientist and cancer researcher working full time at the NIH and this disease causes me all kinds of problems. They saw that we are not just lazy people wanting disability, I told them I never want to stop working and never want to go on disability, I just want treatment so the symptoms go away and I can have my life back.

And what has been the official response from HHS in the *months* following release of these reports?

[chirping crickets]

Did you know there is a "plan" for this disease? Neither did I, until very recently. But guess what? The plan is "secret", for God's sake. What kind of a public health agency uses secret research plans?

Mary Dimmock, one of our tireless advocates has published a detailed review of government failures titled Thirty Years of Disdain: How HHS Buried ME available here. Jennie Spotila discusses the document here.

Thirty Years of Disdain said:
From page 113:

In reality, though, it is not possible to know exactly what is included in NIH’s
plan, because the NIH has not publicly shared their plan. In a personal email exchange in December 2012, NIH’s Dr. Maier said … that the prioritized plan could not be shared “because it is an internal, dynamic working document open to changes in light of new discovery.”
 
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Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
At the Invest in ME conference, Jo Cambridge (part of the UK team preparing to run a rituximab trial) said that they are still working towards being able to distinguish rituximab responders from non-responders, by studying b-cells, and they are making progress, and hopeful. And they are working very closely with Fluge and Mella, sharing information. So, many of our doubts and concerns about rituximab may be answered by the time Fluge and Mella publish their phase iii trial in 2017, if people are prepared to wait that long. Fluge and Mella's recent phase II study will be published very shortly, they say, which has similar results to their earlier studies. That might provide us with some interesting extra information e.g. about how long remissions usually last etc.
 
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Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I'll tell you what my quiet little fear is, that I try to pretent doesn't exist:
Rituximab gets approved, I go to the hospital, have the treatment, wait the alloted time, and I don't get better.
That's quite a big concern of mine, which is why I'm not going to rush into trying to get treatment with rituximab. (Not that I could get it in the UK anyway.) I'm not convinced that many of us will respond to rituximab. I don't know anyone on this forum who has responded to it, apart from our new member - can't remember her name. And many of those who do respond, only seem to have a temporary improvement, according to the Norwegian studies. And some patients deteriorate after treatment. (It seems to be roughly 20% who deteriorate.) Hopefully we'll know a bit more when the next phase II study is published soon. I want to wait until the final Norwegian phase iii trial is published, so I can make a fully informed choice. And then hopefully we'll have more info about who responds and who doesn't respond. But I know two years is a very long time to wait, for people who are very ill.
 
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leokitten

Senior Member
Messages
1,595
Location
U.S.
And what has been the official response from HHS in the *months* following release of these reports?

[chirping crickets]

Did you know there is a "plan" for this disease? Neither did I, until very recently. But guess what? The plan is "secret", for God's sake. What kind of a public health agency uses secret research plans?

Mary Dimmock, one of our tireless advocates has published a detailed review of government failures titled Thirty Years of Disdain: How HHS Buried ME available here. Jennie Spotila discusses the document here.

I'm sorry but your expectations are way too high, it's been only 3 months since the IOM report was released and no government agency moves that fast, ON ANYTHING. I work for the federal government and just deciding to make a miniscule change to a small project takes months. To set forth a new sweeping plan on how to tackle a disease that affects at least 1 million people is going to take a bit of time, it's just the truth and I know it's HHS's fault that they've neglected this disease for 30 years but its the government and no matter what they cannot move quickly even in light of that fact.

The plan is not secret at all and it's just conspiracy BS if you think so. I'll tell you the reason no one knows anything or is saying anything about the plan is because they don't have a plan yet so there is nothing to say. They are likely putting together the plan and it will take up to a year or even longer.
 

leokitten

Senior Member
Messages
1,595
Location
U.S.
Would you believe NIH is against real ME research if you read it in their own words on their own letterhead?

Straus_001.jpg


Straus_002.jpg

What year was this written?

Everything has changed I can already tell by the text that this is just obsolete thinking within the NIH.

You just took my statement out of context, in the past yes I know there were definitely some government institutes and centers that didn't believe in ME research, but I was referring to TODAY and TOMORROW, and I stand by my statement I don't believe the NIH is against ME research now.

Also this letter you post is from only one agency NIAID, not all of the NIH and certainly not all of HHS. I work for the NCI and you have seen that at the NCI colleagues of mine did the ME cancer prevalence study that many people refer to on PR. The NCI is not against ME research.
 

funkyqueen

Senior Member
Messages
123
Location
South of France
I really think Fluge/Mella are on the right track and that many of us are in this subgroup with some kind of autoimmunity causing endothelial dysfunction resulting in poor blood flow to all our organs.

+100000000


Right when I got sick I had a sudden and drastic tissue loss in those first 6 months particularly from my extremities, my shoe size went from 11 to 9 - for me it was my hand-, my hair started falling out like crazy and changed texture to become thin and unhealthy looking, it started going grey very quickly. I lost tissue basically everywhere and muscle even though I'm not deconditioned

exactly the same for me



ME/CFS never gave me OI or POTS it actually made my blood pressure and volume go up, I've had mutiple blood volume analyses via Daxor, my blood volume is way too high not low but I do not have any heart failure or kidney problems. My heart rate also became very low always in the low 50s which is what you would expect if your blood volume has gone too high.

Probably is for that you can always work, Leokitten
I have understood for long time that the vascular was the cause of my worst symptoms...
Proofs?
- I have already made 6 TIA because my (damn) brain (inflamed) is not properly irrigated.
- The last two because I took vasoconstrictor.
- I'm at the limit of syncope when he is 22/23 ° C. (72 ° F)
- Without 2 infusions per week of 1 Liter of Nacl 0.9%, wich improve my O.I, my tachycardia, my cognitive, by adding me blood volume, i cannot do absolutely nothing

... Unlike you Leokitten, my heart beats are fast and I do not have enough blood volume. Its interesting.



Something is wrong with our vascular system this is the root cause for my subgroup

Amen ! I wondered if I was the only PWME to think that ! I exaggerate a little because apparently, few PWME are aware of that (or so our subgroup is restricted ? lol, i do not know..But Hyde and colleagues before him, were well described vascular disease in ME

.


@leokitten : Can you please tell me more about Daxor machine (if I remember correctly, it only exists in the US, right?) That measures blood volume? What happens in practice? What is the exact name of the examination please?

@Jonathan Edwards : if the hypothesis of Fluge and Mella (endothelial dysfunction) is true, is that Rituximab could stop the process, and maybe cure "PWME vascular subgroup" permanently? And if it's not too much to ask, why?
And i have another question : i know Rtx is used to treat (some) vasculitis...but is Rtx can treat secondary vasculitis ? Thanks !
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
@Jonathan Edwards : if the hypothesis of Fluge and Mella (endothelial dysfunction) is true, is that Rituximab could stop the process, and maybe cure "PWME vascular subgroup" permanently? And if it's not too much to ask, why?
And i have another question : i know Rtx is used to treat (some) vasculitis...but is Rtx can treat secondary vasculitis ? Thanks !

For some autoimmune diseases rituximab seems to produce long term remission in a proportion of cases. The idea is that the autoantibodies are produced by an abnormal feedback loop and if you take enough away to break the loop then your immune system is back to normal. It does not happen for rheumatoid arthritis but it probably does for immune thrombocytopenia.

I do not think Fluge and Mella are suggesting that the vascular dysfunction in ME is vasculitis. That is something different. Autoimmune vasculitis of both primary and secondary forms can respond to rituximab but that may not be relevant to ME.
 

funkyqueen

Senior Member
Messages
123
Location
South of France
For some autoimmune diseases rituximab seems to produce long term remission in a proportion of cases. The idea is that the autoantibodies are produced by an abnormal feedback loop and if you take enough away to break the loop then your immune system is back to normal. It does not happen for rheumatoid arthritis but it probably does for immune thrombocytopenia.

I do not think Fluge and Mella are suggesting that the vascular dysfunction in ME is vasculitis. That is something different. Autoimmune vasculitis of both primary and secondary forms can respond to rituximab but that may not be relevant to ME.

Thank you for your answer, Jonathan :)
I have difficulty expressing myself (I am French, and I have very few cognitive, it's hard for me to translate): I had to express myself probably hurt:
I was not speaking of endothelial dysfunction / Fluge and Mella, for vasculitis, but in my head I was referring to the writings of Dr. Hyde, who report cerebrales vasculitis, CNS, (and even in the liver in ME patients autopsy ..)
So I wanted to know whether rituximab could also act on these vasculitis there! Glad that's possible :) Thanks!
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
I am so happy that Rituxan is helping some with ME/CFS, but I don't know...the thought of taking a chemo type drug for this illness is unnerving.

Does anyone else feel the same? Maybe it's just because I have a hypersensitivity to meds and have other immune diseases, but it just seems so....drastic.

Again, I am happy it works for those it works for and YAY, but wow....it's a little scary.
I wouldn't take it; I'd rather live with CFS than risk using something as toxic as Rituxan. Who knows what the long term effects are going to be. :ill:
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Thank you for your answer, Jonathan :)
I have difficulty expressing myself (I am French, and I have very few cognitive, it's hard for me to translate): I had to express myself probably hurt:
I was not speaking of endothelial dysfunction / Fluge and Mella, for vasculitis, but in my head I was referring to the writings of Dr. Hyde, who report cerebrales vasculitis, CNS, (and even in the liver in ME patients autopsy ..)
So I wanted to know whether rituximab could also act on these vasculitis there! Glad that's possible :) Thanks!

Yes, rituximab seems to be good for the majority of forms of vasculitis. I doubt that more than a very tiny proportion of PWME have cerebral vasculitis as such and I suspect most clinicians would change the diagnosis to vasculitis if they found it, but if there is a subliminal vasculitis it might well respond.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
I doubt that more than a very tiny proportion of PWME have cerebral vasculitis as such and I suspect most clinicians would change the diagnosis to vasculitis if they found it
Is this easily diagnosed without something like a SPECT scan though?
 

leokitten

Senior Member
Messages
1,595
Location
U.S.
@leokitten : Can you please tell me more about Daxor machine (if I remember correctly, it only exists in the US, right?) That measures blood volume? What happens in practice? What is the exact name of the examination please?

@funkyqueen search the PR forums for the word "Daxor" and you will find my posts where I answer questions about the test and machine for people, I think you will find all the information your are interested in.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
@funkyqueen search the PR forums for the word "Daxor" and you will find my posts where I answer questions about the test and machine for people, I think you will find all the information your are interested in.
Knowing that @funkyqueen's first language is not English and that she is new to the forum and may not know how to search, I'll give a link.