The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Intrinsic factor?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Fuzzyhead, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    I tested positive last June for gastric parietal antibodies but I had been taking a cyancobalin multivitamin with vitb12. My gp said usually people who test positive for this have pernicious anaemia but My bloods showed high levels of vitb12 and folate so he said I wasn't anaemic.
    Anyway I started feeling worse in November with vertigo, headaches, pressure in head etc and have since gotten worse with extreme fatigue, nausea, loose bowels, depression, brain fog and I keep feeling like I can't breath properly.
    I have read if we aren't producing intrinsic factor our body cant use the vitb12. If we aren't producing this what's the best way to take b12, sublingual or injections?
    I tried to explain this to my gp but he said my red blood cells would be large and mine aren't.
    I have looked at the symptoms of vitb12 deficiency and I have them all but how do I get my gp to believe me if my bloods are showing high levels of vitb12?
    I have some jarrow vitb12 sublingual at 1000 mcg and some methylfolate would this be enough?
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    The CyCbl is making you fuzzy headed because it doesn't work well neurologically. The ENZYMATIC THERAPY (NOT JARROW, that isn't any good any more). I would suggesrt you also get the Anabol Dibencoplex for the AdoCbl and then start titrating BOTH of those a crumb at a time. You can do multiple crumbs of both, say each 20 minutes or so. You will feel when it starts up. Also, starting with 200mcg of methylfolate. Then on the 3rd day approximately after things start, adjust potassium level by titrating to effectiveness. It may take several doses of 300 mg several hours apart to control the potassium, then the next day start with the total taken spread across 4 -6 doses in the day and add more as needed for comfort. At this stage typically 1200-2000mg is the range. Often l--methylfolate has to come up considerably to maintain the healing that can be started by 200mcg. The symptoms listed below can perhaps be some guidance.


    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
  3. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Thanks fredd. I know you can't give me medical advice but do you think this is my problem?
    You know the list of symptoms are these what I should be feeling when I start taking the supplements?
    Also what do you mean by adjusting potassium levels by titrating? Do I need to buy potassium?
     
  4. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Also is it enzymatic therapy bio active b12 ?
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion.
     
  6. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    374
    Southeast
    Freddd, could you please tell me why Jarrow is no good anymore? I currently have both types mentioned here.
     
  7. Linda828

    Linda828

    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    17
    Hi Fuzzyhead,
    I tested positive for intrinsic factor antibodies. Like you, I can't absorb vitamin B12 from food or supplements. My Red Blood cells were never large. Very often these hematologic signs show up long after much neurological damage has already been done. Doctors are wrongly educated in this regard. I went thirty years with classic neurologic symptoms of B12 deficiency, but was never tested for it. Towards the end they did enlarge.

    Both high levels of folate and B12 in the blood can simply mean you are not utilizing it in the cells so it stays circulating in the blood stream. My blood levels of both folate and B12 are now off the charts simply because I'm supplementing with high doses.

    One book you might find helpful is "Could it be B12." by sally Pacholok. It was by reading this that I understood enough about the illness to advocate for myself with doctors. Her treatment approach, however, is not one I would follow, unless you are just aiming to survive.

    I want more, I want to heal. It was by listening to Freddd's advice that I knew what I needed to ask doctors for in the realm of treatment. In my case that was a prescription for methylcobalamin injections. The Enzymatic Therapy sublinguals work well also, for someone like you who can't absorb B12 in the stomach. One advantage to the sublinguals is that they don't require your doctors understanding.

    Good luck with all this. I know it is overwhelming at first to try and figure out all the details of treatment..
    Blessings
    Linda
     
  8. Linda828

    Linda828

    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    17
    Hi Freddd,

    I have a question about this grouping of symptoms. I don't understand what Group 2a and 2b refer too. When you say "group 2a - Both," do you mean both hypokalemia and paradoxal folate deficiency? Are these the symptoms they share in common? Likewise for group 2b. Sorry, I'm slow and just don't quite get it.
    Blessings
    Linda
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Yes. The symptoms are common to both but contained in different patterns. "Both" means that those symptoms generally happen for BOTH reasons at the same time. The other symptoms generally happen from one OR the other OR both at the same time.
     
  10. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Seen my gp again this morning and asked for a methylmanic acid test or homocysteine and he said I don't need one because my bloods show high levels of vit b12 and my red blood cells i.e haemaglobin are all fine. I dont know what to do because my partner is getting frustrated with me as well saying I never believe the doctors.
    I just want to know why I feel so ill.
    What symptoms did you all have with a methylation block?
    My main ones are extreme fatigue, loss of appetite, loose bowels, night sweats, severe depression and brain fog.
     
  11. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

    Messages:
    141
    Likes:
    46
    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    Everything you mentioned, I had. The only thing about loose bowels for me is that I have Celiac. I take most of the supplements Fred recommends. I take all four of the deadlock quartet. I'm on 2.5mg of adb12 (Annabol), 4mg mb12 (Enzymatic Therapy), 1mg of methylfolate in a b-complex, and 500mg of LCF (Drs Best). I also take calcium (can't have dairy so I have to supplement) magnesium, zinc, vit. D, E, C. I was taking an omega 3,6,9, but found out it had soy so now I'm looking for an omega 3 without soy.

    As for the depression mine was greatly improved when I started mb12. Now I find though, that if I accidentally ingest gluten or dairy that depression comes back with a vengeance and won't be appeased with any amount of b12.
     
  12. Linda828

    Linda828

    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    17
    Thank you for the clarification.
    Linda
     
  13. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Thanks phred what is lcf?
    What tests did you have to confirm a methylation block?
     
  14. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Also is the enzymatic therapy b12 fusion cherry flavour?
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    HI Fuzzyhead,

    Your specific symptoms look more like the AdoCbl- LCF etc with l-methylfolate deficiencies. And maybe CNS MeCbl. It's hard to tell. The most severe fatigue and depression appear to happen when lacking the ATP. The loose bowels points more at low l-methylfolate. For these, turn around can be very fast. If it is partial ATP block, chances are good that you will respond in hours to a few days and will know. With the active b12s and folate, if they are going to be effective, most of the time one knows with hours to days for at least 75%. There is not a long time wondering unless hung up on another item. These items have almost nothing to do with red cells. Your doctor doesn't understand the other 400 symptoms that can come from it. You can try them as a trial. If NOTHING happens, and you add in the other deadlock items and other half a dozen critical cofactors and nothing happens, then they are not likely the cause. If you have a huge reaction, a slow titration is in order. The lower a person is on one of these the bigger the response, typically, unless deadlocked. So your doc is sure that you don't have 1 of 6 possible deficiencies. I wouldn't bet my life taking the other 5 deficiencies to not be relevant. It is because of the creation of most b12 and folate deficiencies as being "mystery disease" because you have normal red blood cells is a result of 60 years of research and practice with inactive folates and cobalamins. Docs have 99% forgotten how to diagnose b12 deficiency and because of belief in CyCbl, HyCbl and folic acid don't know what active b12 and active folate deficiencies look like.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Fuzzyhead,

    Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion is berry flavor as close as I can tell, but NOT cherry.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    hi Phred,

    I accidentally ingest gluten or dairy that depression comes back with a vengeance and won't be appeased with any amount of b12

    I'm not sure, are there other symptoms that come back with the depression? It could be folate insufficiency. The things that affected me by lessening depression are MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate, Sam-e, zinc, TMG, D-ribose. Another could be biotin and even Vit D and any combination or all thereof. Sometimes it can take a lot more l-methylfolate. For depression Deplin research found 15mg the most effective size. Is there any folic, folinic, folinate, folate mentioned? These can hide under a number of names.
     
  18. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Sorry for being stupid but is lcf l- carnitine fumarate?
    And what is cns mecbl?
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes:
    1,433
    Salt Lake City
    CNS = Central Nervous System (brain and spinal cord)

    MeCbl = methylcobalamin.

    LCF - L-carnitine fumarate

    ALCAR - L-Acetyl Carnitine

    Research has shown that those diagnosed with FMS, CFS, MS, Parkinson's, ALS, Alzheimer's, Autism, Supra Nuclear Palsy and some others have LOW Central Nervous System cobalamin despite normal or high levels in the body. In other words, regardless of what the cobalamin level of the body is at, a person can have a b12 deficiency of the brain and cord. Body measurements make no difference and can't detect this.
     
  20. Fuzzyhead

    Fuzzyhead Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    54
    Thankyou. Also is the enzymatic therapy b12 infusion the same as methylcobalamin?
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page