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Intrinsic b-12 vs folapro

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by greenshots, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Hi guys,

    I know I am probably missing something here but the Vank protocol suggests we take both of these but I looked at the ingredients & they seem to have the identical active floats. So why not just take the intrinsic version?
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Intrinsic B12 -
    EACH TABLET SUPPLIES: Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin) 500 mcg Folate (as folic acid, L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate) 800 mcg Intrinsic Factor (porcine) 20 mg

    Folapro is pure Metafolin.

    The folic acid, amount not specified, can block 10x or more of Metafolin. Cyanocobalamin is a bad joke, it's FAKE b12 even though it is the official "b12" . Mb12/adb12 works on 5 times as many people-symptoms and is 100-10,000 times more effective. There is some suspicion that cyanocbl can actually block the active forms.
     
    rydra_wong and L'engle like this.
  3. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Freddd

    About six months ago I came across several articles which all stated that cyanocobalamins discovery was an error. I have just spent ages trying to find the links for you but Murphy's law prevails and they remain elusive. However, from (CFS) memory, it occurred because the scientist heated a component too high and created cyanide or cyanide was erroneously present and became compounded with the final product, named cyanocobalamin. The articles even talked about that the Nobel Prize should be stripped because of this (lol!). ["The fact that most of our vitamin pills contain cyano rather than methyl B12 is largely an accident of history, the result of using charcoal to filter extracts during the isolation of B12. Unknown to the early researchers who first isolated B12, the traces of cyanide present in such charcoal rapidly convert all natural forms of B12, including methyl B12 into the more stable cyano form. As a result, the discovery of the B12 coenzymes and their metabolic role was delayed for years."]



    What is known is that cyano cobalamin is artificial and not found in nature. Methylcobalamin is the only active form of Vitamin B-12 in the brain outside the mitochondrion. The liver must convert cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin (Cyanocobalamin is not biologically active until converted to methylcobalamin) in order for Vitamin B-12 to do its biochemical work in the brain. When the complex conversion of cyanocobalamin is not completed, the brain is robbed of the benefits of methylcobalamin. A healthy person is able to convert cyano form to methyl form however conversion is very low, about 1%. Those with common genetic defect or who are compromised in other ways are unable to do this. Other study found that PWC tend to have sub normal levels of B12 in their cerebral spinal fluids while vitamin B-12 levels in the blood did not significantly deviate from normal ranges.

    the reason the cyano form is so widely used is that it is cheap and stable (like magnesium oxide instead of the more biologically available forms).

    I found an interesting link in my travels that stated the following (I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this info however as I found it only in one source): "Because cyanocobalamin is so inferior to other forms, it has been repeatedly suggested by several researchers that it be completely removed from the market! While Japan, who uses Methyl B12 exclusively in its prescription formulations, has removed Cyanocobalamin as has Great Britain- US doctors still wrote over 1 1/2 MILLION prescriptions for Cynocobalamin in 2008 alone! So much for the 'evidence based medicine' that doctors claim to use."

    I must thank you for your comment Freddd which made me search for some info as I found a lot of interesting research based info about methylcobalamin which I have bookmarked to read when the current brain fog clears!!

    Cheers
     
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, greenshots.

    Intrinsi/B12/folate and FolaPro are not in the current version of the simplified methylation protocol.

    The first was removed because the manufacturer changed the formulation and removed folinic acid. The current version of the protocol includes folinic acid.
    FolaPro was replaced by MethylMate B. Both are 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, but MethylMate B is a liquid form.

    Freddd does not tolerate folinic acid as a supplement or vegetables, where it occurs naturally, I think because he has inherited a mutation in the MTHFS enzyme (not to be confused with MTHFR). Based on the results of our clinical study, it appears that most people with ME/CFS do not have such a mutation. For people who do not have such a mutation, folinic acid provides support for the other folate functions while the methionine synthase reaction has not yet come up to normal activity.

    Freddd and I agree that it is best to limit folic acid in these protocols, for a variety of reasons.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    Excellent. Let me point you towards seceral other items. The 1959 UK study that correctly identified the mb12 and adb12 as the predominant forms found in the human body, and bovine and 100% of all animals via xray crystalography is on line. "cyano cobalamin is artificial and not found in nature." is not quite correct. No amimal uses it for any purpose. It is however the end result when adbosylb12, hydroxycobalamin and methylb12 detox cyanide in the body and is normally seen only in trace amounts that are very rapidly excreted. So in that sense it is completely natural as result of biological processes but only in removing cyanide.

    One big obvious difference is that they had managed to extract enough b12 to actually grow some crystals from it, big advance and they did not use a hot filtration through activated charcoal which converted it to cyancbl. In Britain in 1971 a doctor sent a letter to the Lancet (medical journal of the Bristish Medical Society I believe) suggesting that cyanocbl be eliminated in favor of hydroxcbl. In Japan, the alert low cobalamin serum level is 550pg/ml rather than the 160pg/ml in UK and USA. Also in Japan, the ONLY country that uses mb12 as the official kind, their Alzheimer's rate is 20% that of USA and UK. Also cancer rates are lower. I haven't found statistics on all the other neurological diseases affected by b12.

    The conversion rate of 1% is based on 1000mcg injection and 10mcg converted. That amount remainns about the same with larger injections. Also, research now indicates that cvyanocbl is the preferred excretion form ans is excreted by the kidneys 3x as fast as methylb12. That is about the case with glutathionylcobalamin too, much faster, visibly faster, than for mb12. Hydroxycbl also is excreted noticably faster than mb12.

    Evidence based medicine uses STUDY results, not the results of common folks like us. If the studies study the wrong things or ask the wrong questions then the "evidence" used gets it very wrong. Since macrocytotis of red cells was the ONLY criteria for whether cyanocbl worked or not for 40 years the research says it works for about 2/3 of people in any given study. Then in the research only another dozen symptoms were ever studied. They attempted to studfy the effects of cyanocbl, folic acid and b6 on various CNS neurological conditions. NO SOAP. Of course not, the amounts were wrong (not cns effective doses) and cyanocbl works on a few dozen symptoms at all and the other 300 or so are completely ignored. The relative effectiveness has so few studies that we, right here, have the best handle on that.

    If you could put together all the links to the references that would be a big help. I was too sick when I chased these things down to do that. There is an article in Life Extensoion Magazine (on line) that gives the b12 history and all the historical references.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I agree that I think that the lack of ability to use folinic might be pretty rare but it may be more common that you think. I think that a possible way to spot it is the alternating diarhea-normal or diarhea-constipation form of IBS rather than the steady diarhea version, especially if that is tied in with certain other things such as intermittant angular cheilitis, intermittant dermatitis, intermittant acne, intermittant finger tip/nail skin deterioration, happening together in some combinations. I also have edema tied into that and tied to that intermittant low potassium when the water dumps off of me. MS follows that intermittant better and worse pattern in some people also. This is a testable hypothesis. I have 5 or 6 things, and I am watching for more tha all come and go together. I can MAKE them all come on by eating too many veggies for several days in a row and make them go away by eating a lot fewer veggies and taking more Metafolin. In the data you have from the study were any of the symptoms of that kind of an intermittant nature on a longer time base, especially several symptoms together? I think that this might be able to be able to be a first internet study of it's kind. It can be closely defined and has a way to a-b-a-b the situation demonstrating very convincingly both the cause and the cure. If this is involved with 1/3 of our CFS/FMS symptoms in the short term and most of them in the long term when allowed to continue perhaps FMS/CFS are the result of a selection into this group by people with folate problems.
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, freddd.

    Sorry, we didn't track the symptoms in that study in a way that would test your hypothesis.

    I think it would be interesting to try to find out how prevalent an intolerance of folinic acid is in the ME/CFS population. Since folinic acid is one of the two most commonly occurring folate forms in natural foods, it would seem to me that this would be pretty rare, but who knows? It would be a good thing to find out. As I've noted, I think this has to be due to a genetic variation in the MTHFS gene. The 23andme panel genotype characterizes 22 polymorphisms in this gene. Here are my results on them:


    MTHFS 77924615 rs8923 C or T CT
    MTHFS 77925626 rs2733103 C or T CC
    MTHFS 77925800 rs16971427 A or C AA
    MTHFS 77929052 rs655473 A or G AA
    MTHFS 77931252 rs17284990 C or T TT
    MTHFS 77941626 rs16971450 A or G AA
    MTHFS 77942037 rs6495446 C or T CT
    MTHFS 77945097 rs7177659 A or C CC
    MTHFS 77945214 rs6495449 A or G GG
    MTHFS 77949320 rs17285431 A or C AC
    MTHFS 77951108 rs6495451 C or T CT
    MTHFS 77952423 rs2586154 A or G GG
    MTHFS 77955337 rs12899781 G or T GT
    MTHFS 77959026 rs16971478 A or G AA
    MTHFS 77959188 rs2586153 C or T CC
    MTHFS 77961443 rs2562744 A or C AA
    MTHFS 77964742 rs2733106 A or G AA
    MTHFS 77965338 rs12438477 A or C CC
    MTHFS 77969105 rs12898642 C or T CT
    MTHFS 77970821 rs2586182 A or C AA
    MTHFS 77971712 rs2733088 A or G AG
    MTHFS 77973395 rs12440798 C or T CC

    It might be possible to correlate folinic acid intolerance with one or more of these polymorphisms.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thankyou for the info. Can you explain at least a little what that list of polymorphisms means? Or what we are trying to match to? Or what we want to collect from those who have had testing done? Would these numbers be the same whoever tests or only from 23andme?

    An awful lot of people have grown up taking folic acid and continued vitamins as adults so it isn't limited to only vegetable folate. I keep seeing more and more teens and pre-teens developing CFS/FMS. We would need to ask some questions. My sister is a pediatrician. I think that a talk with her might be informative as to a change over the last 30 years and other such questions. Pure Encapsulations has a childrens vitamin with mb12 and Metafolin. http://pureencapsulations.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=JUN1

    It's the only one I could find, and very recent.

    I don't think there is any way based on symptoms or patterns to know if they are "naturals" or folic acid caused. And just based on what we are seeing here there are a LOT of people with folic acid blocking methylfoalte compared to the expected relatively few doing so with folinic acid.


    Looking at the results from adding folic acid to food might be informative. They expected a huge drop while the real drop was "only a disappointing 27%". I'm sure that the ones who were helped were partly offset by those in whom the folic acid CAUSED the neural tube defect.
     
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    This is the list of polymorphisms that 23andme characterizes for the gene MTHFS. With their current gene chip, these are the ones they are able to characterize for everyone who sends in a saliva sample to them. There may be more possible SNPs in that gene, or there may not be, I don't know. The rs number is the identifier for each SNP. The two letters separated by "or" represent the two possible nucleotides that could be present in the gene at that particular location. The final two letters represent the nucleotides that I have in that location, one inherited from my father, the other from my mother. It isn't knowable from this list which letter represents the "norm" and which is the less common version. That has to come from studying a population. Some of norms may be known from research that has been done. What we would need to do would be to identify some people who clearly do have intolerance to folinic acid, like yourself, and compare their results to a group who does not have the intolerance. I suspect that we will be looking for a homozygous SNP (two copies the same) in the people who are intolerant to folinic acid, while the people who are not intolerant of it will have at least one of the opposite nucleotides. Since we don't know which of the polymorphisms in this list is the important one (assuming that at least one of them is), we would have to check all of them in this way.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  10. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    How about - what is the difference between Folapro and Deplin? Is there a preferred mfolate "drug" where you can get high dose mfolate in on convenient pill? I have a doctor's apointment Monday and could maybe get a prescription. Which would be better? Or some other brand?
     
  11. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    They are both Metafolin, patented by Merck. Folapro is OTC, sold by Metagenics. Deplin is prescription, and a much larger dose. There is a 10mg methylfolate supplement sold on i-herb made by Metabolic Maintenance. It is not Metafolin, but is L-5 methyltetrahydrofolate. I don't know anyone who has tried it though. Here is a link http://www.iherb.com/Metabolic-Maintenance-5-MTHF-L-Methylfolate-10-mg-90-Capsules/38360?at=0
     
  12. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Man that stuff is expensive! Thanks for the info!
    Rydra
     

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