New Atmosphere, New Vision: Gibson and Whittemore Kick Off Invest in ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry reports on Dr. Gibson's introduction and Dr. Whittemore's keynote speech, at the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Intracellular magnesium defiency and vitamin B6 (and/or B2) deficiency in ME/CFS

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by richvank, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes:
    835
    Hi Rich

    ***Hi, AQ.

    I don't think I was supplementing much of anything at the time of that first B6 test back in '06, certainly not mega dosages.

    ***O.K.

    People on pyroluria groups tell me serum B6 readings are unreliable.

    ***They may mean that a serum B6 measurement tells you how much is in the serum, but not what is inside the cells, where the business takes place.

    I didn't take any supplemental B6 between 2007 & 2011, bearing in mind Amy Yasko's cautions about B6 & the CBS SNPs, so no I was not taking any B6 at the time of that OAT in 2011, so that result is a puzzle.

    ***I'm assuming that you mean the high pyridoxic. I don't understand why it was high then, either, unless it means that your body was not able to use B6 very well, and was therefore dumping it.

    Which raises the question, was I wasting B6 in the urine, and if so why?

    ***We must have two great minds!

    KPU maybe?

    ***I think that's a possibility. Maybe low B2 is a possibility, also.

    Calcium is in range on my recent CBCs.

    ***O.K. You probably don't have hyperparathyroidism then.

    Alk phos is low in range. I've had my eye on it since hearing Klinghardt talk about it.. I think it has got lower over the years. A plasma amino acids test in 2010 was strongly suggestive of hypochloridia .. so that could be a clue to low zinc, I guess.

    ***Yes, low alkaline phosphatase can be caused by low zinc. And yes, low stomach acid can be caused by low zinc, too, though there are other possibilities, such as low glutathione, which you also appear to have had.

    Thanks for taking the time to look at these.

    Hard to know where to go next. I have been going around in circles for a while now.

    Cheers
    AQ

    ETA: So how useful is it to supplement magnesium if it can't get into the cells because of some B6 bottleneck?

    ***I think that's a definite problem. Maybe raising B2 will help with the B6, which in turn will help with the magnesium. Alternatively, maybe it's HPU, and getting the Health Diagnostics test for that may be worth doing.

    ***Best regards,

    ***Rich
     
  2. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,309
    Likes:
    857
    UK
    We do not have anything like your tests here rich but I follow your research closely - why I wonder was I losing/wasting potassium in urine early on (neon yellow no supps at the time). I heard adrenal problems.
     
  3. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes:
    268
    Ok, Enid, I am a layperson, but someone was telling me that high potassium in the urine could be due to cell death.. apparently potassium is given off when the cells die. I had v. elevated apoptosis in tests I ran thru Acumen Labs in Devon (UK) back in the day. I'm sure you could google this to verify if it's accurate.. and there are probably other explanations also....

    BTW, did you have the urine test done on the NHS?

    And PPS, Genovations has an office in England .. so you can get some of these funky tests over there.. Just pricey & they all need to be repeated.... Hopefully, those of us this side of the Atlantic can advance the collective wisdom. I feel for you. The NHS has nothing to offer PWCS I know.

    Hang in there Enid!
     
  4. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes:
    268
    Thanks Rich. Yeah, more tests.. Yay!
    Thankfully I am seeing results with B2 so that seems like a home run.
    The 2 yrs I spent sucking down OSR & EDTA probably didn't help with low zinc either... Hindsight is great isn't it?
     
  5. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,309
    Likes:
    857
    UK
    Thanks for your comments aquarius - luckily the neon urine has ceased and awful odour too. Working through all the good advice and much clearer thinking now. My Doc - usually too many bananas !
     
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes:
    268
    Yes. Damn those bananas. If I had known then what I know now about those darn things.......Ay!
     
  7. adreno

    adreno Learned helplessness

    Messages:
    4,122
    Likes:
    6,413
    Europe
    Huh? I must have missed something; what's wrong with bananas?
     
  8. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes:
    268
    Sarcasm.. enid's doc thinks some of her issues may be due to bananas.
     
  9. BFG

    BFG

    Messages:
    83
    Likes:
    23
    California
    kisekishiawase likes this.
  10. girlfromeurope

    girlfromeurope Senior Member

    Messages:
    129
    Likes:
    35
    Belgium
    Hi , I know it's an old thread, but I think have the same problems as you.
    I also have a magnesium deficiency ant get levels up. Also have symptoms of b6, b2 and zinc deficiency.
    But can't get those up either. Did you find an answer to your problems?
     
    presently_distant likes this.
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Likes:
    268
    Nope. Sorry.
     
  12. presently_distant

    presently_distant Everywhere and Nowhere

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    17
    Denver, CO
    I think part of the problem is that magnesium deficiencies take ALOT of magnesium to correct and I find my demand skyrockets as soon as I start supplementing it again. B6 (p5p) really seems to go well with magnesium as well as taurine.

    When I use magnesium taurate sublingually, I feel like I'm finally getting some magnesium into my system that is not eliminated an hour later. Not sure it taurine helps with retention or not (pretty sure I read somewhere it does). But, I know what I'm feeling (definitely no placebo here) and it's GOOD.

    The other end of the problem (for me, at least) is that thiamin requires magnesium to function optimally and without thiamin...energy and brain function are just not where they need to be (to say it lightly).
     
    Hanna and girlfromeurope like this.
  13. presently_distant

    presently_distant Everywhere and Nowhere

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    17
    Denver, CO
    Since zinc is needed for p5p utilization and p5p is needed for magnesium utilization (to whatever degree that may be). Shouldn't one first supplement with hcl pepsin to help zinc absorb, then try taking a dose of p5p, then try a form of magnesium that suits your fancy? I'm going to experiment...

    This is just my simple minded, non trained perspective. So please bare with me. But isn't that a logical route?

    I've been thinking about why magnesium and subsequently thiamin isn't absorbing in my case and it could be due to my lack of stomach acid and cofactors.
     
  14. kel88

    kel88 Senior Member

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    12
    I was surching on the internet and found this post.
    They say people with Celiac have low Akline Phosphatase.
    This is the reson they cant do anything with normal B6.
    P5P would be better only leople with Celiac cant absorp P5P well in the gut.
    So the anwse would be ( heal the gut). And inject dailey with P5P injections in steat of pyridoxine HCL.

    But how do we get those?

    All people with CFS, Autism, schizophrenia and auto immuun disease have problems with wheat and gluten and so low in alkaline phosphatase.

    So injections would be the best solutions just as b12.

    Anybody a idea where we can get those?
     
  15. MacGyver

    MacGyver

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    28
    Belgium
    @aquariusgirl @girlfromeurope
    I'd look into Boron. I also have (had?) elevated levels of P5P (218nmol/L) in my blood and couldn't tolerate taking any magnesium whatsoever. I would get, seriously, depressed and have aggravated pain when taking even a crumb (30mg) of magnesium malate. I'd tried everything to be able to take magnesium: take potassium, salt, more P5P, B2, general vitamin complex, all other trace minerals etc. nothing worked.

    I started taking boron (initially 1x 3mg NOW Foods Calcium Borogluconate, now 2x) and after only 5 days I'm already able to take 500mg of magnesium!
    Why do I know it's the boron and not something else? I didn't start taking anything else and I can feel the raised testosterone all too well ;)

    From what little information there is available regarding boron, it has the following properties:
    • Is involved in calcium, magnesium and phosphate metabolism. Taking boron alone will raise magnesium and calcium levels.
    • Boron is said to be a cellular membrane catalyst allowing several ions to pass into cells, especially phosphates. For me this explains how boron can raise magnesium levels in the first place. But that's me making that link, nothing to back it up: P5P is a phosphate molecule. P5P is, from Rich's info, needed to get magnesium into the cells. Hence: Raise Boron -> Get P5P into cells -> Raise magnesium.
    • The same membrane catalyst property regarding phosphates also means boron is involved in ATP synthesis.
    • Interacts with several (all?) hormones including Vitamin D: boron is involved in the process of converting Vit D to it's active form. Taking boron without additional Vit D will still allow proper bone formation.
    • Boron's action regarding hormones also means it can raise testosterone!
    Side note: there have been previous posts here regarding boron, some with negative responses. Look into those as well but since we're all grasping straws here: I'd give it a try. While I don't have OAT tests or blood/hair testing to prove anything; my own n=1 experiment shows positive results and I was getting a bit worried I wasn't able to tolerate magnesium at all, until now :)

    Good luck!
     
    fozzaw and Little Bluestem like this.
  16. MacGyver

    MacGyver

    Messages:
    42
    Likes:
    28
    Belgium
    I'd like to add a few notes to my previous post.

    While the above is still true regarding boron it seems the major effect for me wasn't with regards to its effect on P5P and magnesium but its role in and effect on vitamin D and calcium metabolism. As a result of its vitamin D/calcium effects I was able to tolerate taking magnesium because, as I've now figured out I need to increase my D and calcium intakes to be able to raise/sustain taking magnesium.
    That said, boron is key here. Without it, taking vitamin D, calcium and magnesium would result in serious issues. With it I get the benefits of all three, though I'm still working on getting the ratios right.
    It's clear to me that boron is a key player to get correct calcium metabolism. Disfunctional calcium metabolism being something which I think is all too common due to trace mineral deficiencies like boron and manganese.

    Since the previous post I upped my dose to 27mg/day and have been on that for the past 4 months. (Yes, I'm still alive ;))

    Also, I've since had a hair test (before taking 27mg boron per day) and... it showed low boron :) That along with it showing low manganese and responding to that favourably, as well as showing calcium/magnesium metabolism issues confirms for me that hair testing is very, very reliable. Best money I ever invested in my health.
     
    Sidereal likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page