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Intolerance To Multi-Vitamin/Mineral - Fight Or Flight Reaction

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Tigger, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Hi all,

    Any reason why even very low-dose, high-quality multi-vitamins send me into fight or flight mode? I've tried a wide variety of brands and forms. I take low dose sublingual mb12 alongside. The multi literally solves all of my problems. The only downside to the multi is the fight or flight activation at the slightest stressor. My SNP's are listed below. I have mildly elevated lead and aluminum.

    Thank you in advance.

    @caledonia
    @Eastman
    @alicec
    @stridor
     
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I don't know if they contain B6 or are yeast based? Multi-vitamins don't solve any of my problems and they make me feel all wired and weird. It seems to be B6 in some cases.

    Just an idea
     
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  3. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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  4. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I don't have anything specific for you but I think that your adrenals may be borderline in terms of cortisol production. In times of stress, the adrenals come to the rescue with cortisol, epinephrine and norepinephrine. But when cortisol supply is limited, in my personal experience, the adrenals give an extra helping of adrenaline. This is a decidedly unpleasant experience and put me in emerg for 3 hours. It was the last time that I ever left home without extra hydrocortisone. Context - my adrenals are shot and I am on hydrocortisone for life.
     
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Probably one or more of the B vitamins. They can be stimulating. (even if you tolerate B12)

    I might be able to tell you more if you listed the brand(s) of what you were taking so I could look at the ingredients.

    What kind of testing showed the lead and aluminum elevations?
     
  6. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    You could try the components separately. That's what I did when I found that something in them helped. For me it turned out to be iodine. I don't take multivitamins now, because they all contain B3, which made me suicidal. B2 made my symptoms a bit worse. B1 helped slightly at first. I'm not sure what would cause the fight or flight for you. If you want the answer, you'll have to test them yourself, because we all have different responses to chemicals.
     
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  7. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Thank you all for the quick responses.

    @ukxmrv B6 definitely does push me towards fight or flight but the doses in the multi seem very reasonable for the most part. Do you think there's a reason we are so sensitive to B6 (potentially)?

    @Eastman I've taken:
    • Pure Encapsulations - Nutrient 950 without Iron - Hypoallergenic Multi-vitamin/Mineral Formula for Optimal Health
    • Thorne Research, Basic Prenatal (Original Formula)
    • DNA Formulas Whole Food Multivitamin 120 Capsules Enhanced Bioavailable Whole Food Multivitamin
    • And of course generic, no good multi's before I knew the importance of quality nutrients (also with the same negative results in terms of extreme panic)
    @stridor I would definitely agree that that is a possibility given that I've had intense, chronic stress since I was very young. How did you come to the conclusion that your adrenals are shot? I've had cortisol measured before and the results were apparently fine but I have no idea how reliable the tests were. Would you recommend trying hydrocortisone for a bit and seeing if it helps with the stress response?

    @caledonia Should I steer clear of multi's/B complexes then and just add solely what seems to help? And I had my hair tested through Doctor's Data. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on reliability but the numbers were fairly high.

    @Wishful I actually have the exact same response to B3 (in both forms). I've tried almost every B separately for weeks at a time. Unfortunately nothing really concrete in terms of staying with any given B long-term except for the active b12s and mfolate.
     
  8. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    I didn't recognise anything there that could cause problems.

    You wouldn't think that the doses of B6 in multivitamins could cause problems. Still, there were some users in this thread who reported problems with supposedly lowish doses of B6.
     
  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Multivitamins are basically guesses of what a typical person might need. They are not at all customized to your biochemistry.

    Research has found that patients with ME/CFS have imbalances in biochemistry and in their microbiomes (which may affect nutrient processing and absorption).

    If you are depleted in one or more nutrients, you may have biochemical pathways that are lacking what they need to run properly. This may cause a backup of high levels of other nutrients as they are waiting for what you're missing in order to be used. And some nutrients, like B6, are used in multiple pathways, so being short of it can cause multiple problems.

    And, suddenly adding in nutrients can contribute to an overload of the things that are backed up, or you suddenly take the bottleneck out of a stuck pathway, and then move along to the next bbottleneck where you're missing something else.

    Most, if not all, people are toxic to some degree. If you've been short of nutrients used in detoxification pathways (like B vitamins, and certain minerals and amino acids), adding nutrients can begin to mobilize toxins (arsenic, cadmium, lead, mercury, organophosphates, etc.) which can produce unpleasant symptoms as well. (I once started a very good supplement, under a doctors supervision, only to have arsenic be mobilized and measurable at a level the CDC considers acute toxicity....)

    The best way to sort out what you need is to have a comprehensive nutrient test, like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval run. You can find it at www.gdx.net, as well as finding a doctor who can run it.

    Then, you can develop a nutrition plan that's customized to your needs.

    Other tests that might help you figure out what's going on might be a heavy metals test which shows if you're toxic and with what, or a DNA stool test, which tells what bacteria are in your microbiome, which is useful as certain bacteria convert certain nutrients from what you eat into forms your body can use, and without them, you may not be able to use the nutrition you eat.
     
  10. Tigger

    Tigger

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    So helpful!

    @Learner1 I do have the accumulation of a variety of heavy metals according to my Doctor's Data hair analysis. Money is a bit of an issue right now so would you recommend safe chelation (ALA via Cutler's protocol, DMSA, EDTA and NAC) until I'm able to complete the NutrEval test? I've chelated with ALA properly for roughly 40 rounds and still have some negative side effects towards the end/after.

    I've also taking trillions of CFU of high-quality probiotics with absolutely no issues which I take to be a good sign.
     
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    There is a pre-pay program for the NutrEval in the US. If you pay with credit card up front, it's about $160-180, then they run it through insurance, and you don't pay anything further. Call them to ask. It's a great value and has saved me a lot of money avoiding mistakes.

    I recommend working with a good functional medicine practitioner for chelation. You can run into a lot of trouble otherwise. I have chelated extensively under an expert doctor's supervision and found I needed a huge amount of methylation support, curcumin, as well as replenishment of minerals. My kidneys and liver needed support, too, though they're fine now.

    I have no experience doing Cutler's protocol. However, the dosages are very timid. He's trying to avoid people getting into trouble with a do-it-yourself model, but honestly, it was far too slow for how toxic I was.

    I had no acute exposure, but I'm lousy at methylation, and I ended up with stage 3 cancer. I've chelated at higher doses over 6 years and am still somewhat toxic (though these days I have tin coming out of me, rather than arsenic, lead, and mercury). On his program, it would likely have taken 60 years...

    Figuring out your nutrient needs first is an essential step before embarking on a chelation protocol, or you'll end up mobilizing toxins which can get stuck and then stopped in parts of your body you don't want them yo be in (like your brain).

    You're asking good questions - keep learning and you'll figure out what you need to do.

    Best wishes...
     
  12. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Thank you so much. I'll get started with NutrEval and look for a good practitioner for chelation. Any sources for finding a good doctor for chelation specifically?
     
  13. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Carefully. You'll want to interview them and see what their approach is. Ideally, it would be a functional medicine doctor, which can be an MD, ND, ARNP, DC, or DO.

    You might try the Genova Diagnostics or Institute for Functional Medicine or Seeking Health Find a Doctor programs. Then, look at their websites and see what they do. You want someone thoughtful, who individualizs a program for you, and ideally, takes your insurance. Chelation isn't typically covered, but you may have other needs that would be.

    Most will use Doctor's Data Provoked Urine Heavy Metal testing as a baseline and to monitor progress. And, as you may have found, different chelator work on different toxins, so a one size fits all program won't work. And they should be interested in your digestion, methylation, and replenishing nutrients. And monitoring kidneys and liver.

    It will take time, so don't rush. It's better to find a solid program for you to follow over time, than to rush into something that could have serious consequences.
     
  14. Tigger

    Tigger

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    Absolutely. Thanks again.
     
  15. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I'm not a strong supporter of fears of toxic metals. There's a whole industry based on unsupported fears, of toxins, EMF, alien slave lords, etc. Did your doctor tell you that your heavy metals levels were health-threateningly high? If you ask someone who makes money from chelation treatments, of course they'll say yes, and tell you all about how wonderful you'll feel once you remove those evil atoms, and show you pictures of patients (for some reason usually jumping up in the air with smiles on their faces) who have had the treatments. Are some people unusually sensitive to heavy metals? Probably. Are there outright scams involving heavy metal scares? Of course; there's money involved.

    If you really believe that heavy metals are causing your health problems, go ahead and get expensive treatments. It's your money. I suggest doing more research into toxins from sources that aren't making money from scaring people about it.
     
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  16. CFSTheBear

    CFSTheBear Senior Member

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    To add to @Wishful's point, 'provoked heavy metal tests' have been debunked. E.g.: https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/urine_toxic.html

    Unless you have clear reason to suspect a metal is to blame for causing your disease (being exposed to chemical poisoning, etc), but these things are generally mentioned in the same breath as non-specific "toxins" that don't have an ounce of truth to them. Best of luck with your future care.
     
  17. Tigger

    Tigger

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    @Wishful @jstash hahah I love the enthusiasm. The main reason I had interest in heavy metals is because many of my problems are psychological disorders all starting at a very young age including extreme suicidal tendencies, general depression, extreme anxiety and panic (especially in social situations), intense brain fog, very low self-worth/self-esteem/confidence, etc. Mb12/ab12/mfolate have helped quite a bit with all except for panic/fight or flight/HPA activation. I was under the impression that heavy metals can cause fairly significant issues in regards to mental disorders. For example, I've read that aluminum can cause issues with BH4 processing leading to some of my aforementioned issues as well as excess/bio-unavailable copper causing unnecessary HPA activation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  18. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I'm certainly not an expert in special disorders involving metals. Some people simply have problems with metal concentrations that aren't a problem for the majority of us. If you have one of those special cases, I'd suggest going to a qualified expert on them. I wouldn't recommend going to someone who claims himself to be an expert in that sort of thing; not unless you really enjoy wasting money on something that is unlikely to help.

    As for heavy metals causing brain development problems, that's certainly possible if you were exposed to unusually high levels of them, or again, are a special case regarding sensitivity to them. However, if it was exposure at an early age, removing the metals now would probably be far too late to help. Maybe there are experts who deal with after-the-damage-is-done treatments to try to correct the problems?

    If you have limited resources (money or mental energy) to try to find treatments, it's important to do research into the issues first, so you can make as good of an educated guess as you can one which possibilities to pursue. There are too many health scams out there trying to get your money.
     
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I checked the ingredients. It could either be the B vitamins or possibly ascorbic acid and variations thereof (ascorbyl palmitate, etc.) I developed issues with that over the past 2 years or so after previously tolerating it. Causes me an agitation/anxiety type reaction after a few days of use.

    Yes, I would discontinue the multi's and just supplement with single supplements that seem to help.

    If you happened to have done the Doctor's Data Toxic and Essential Elements Hair Test (shows both toxic metals and minerals), that is the correct one to use with Cutler's Counting Rules. See my signature link for Cutler info.

    You say you've already done 40 rounds doing the Cutler protocol, but are having some after round effects? I think I would just continue the protocol, but tweak on ways to reduce the after-round effects. The Cutler forums can be very helpful for debugging this. You also may be into the dump period by now, where things can stall or get worse.

    I've tried other protocols for chelation, but either made no progress or got worse. The only one I tolerate is frequent dose chelation. As I found out from experimentation, I'm a fast metabolizer and need to dose every 2 hours day and night. Even 2.5 hours is too long to go between doses. Other protocols with one or a few doses per day just don't work for me.

    As far as metals are a scam that don't cause illness except for a few special circumstances - I have no words...these are well known toxins which are, sadly, ubiquitous in our environment. They can cause a wide range of illness, both mental and physical.

    I'm just getting into researching EMFs, as I've become sensitive to those too, but again, I have to disagree that negative health effects from them are a scam.

    I do agree that there is a lot of misinformation out there as to how to fix problems from metals and EMFs and you do have to do your research and be careful of what you're spending your money on.
     
  20. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I didn't say that metals were a scam or didn't cause illness. Excessive levels definitely do cause health issues. We evolved in an environment with metals, and developed methods of dealing with 'normal' amounts of them. My belief is that normal people with normal levels of metals shouldn't have health issues from them. Some people might have health issues at lower than normal levels. If you've been taking measures to remove metals from your body, haven't you lowered them well below 'normal' levels by now? Have you had the levels measured lately to see how effective the treatments have been? My toxicology assay showed only slightly elevated Mn and Se, and when I said I had been eating lots of whole grains, he said that would explain it.

    Have you actually tested your sensitivity to EMFs? Double-blind testing, I mean. You could have someone set up several (excess levels to make the results more obvious) transmitters of whatever frequencies you believe you are sensitive to near you, and control when they are on or off, without you knowing. Record when you feel better or worse. Repeat enough to give statistical relevance.
     

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