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Interview with Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Michael Van ElZakker: chronic fatigue vagus nerve link

perrier

Senior Member
Messages
1,254
Haven't seen this posted elsewhere on the forum: Harvard neuroscientist Dr. Michael Van ElZakker: chronic fatigue vagus nerve link

Not any new information that I can tell, but an interesting read. Van ElZakker would seem to be a very well informed and competent researcher that we don't hear a lot about.
Interesting read indeed. Thanks.

Two questions: 1) has anyone tried putting bricks at the head of their bed? Has it helped? He is suggesting that lying flat just makes things worse. Yet many folks are bedbound. 2) has anyone tried vagus nerve stimulation with say a biomodulator? Is there any evidence this device helps ME folks?
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
2) has anyone tried vagus nerve stimulation with say a biomodulator?
One of my students who has ME with primarily OI-type and gut symptoms has achieved significant improvement in those symptoms with a P-Stim device which provides vagus nerve stimulation, if I understand correctly. He is not cured. He still has bad days, but they are much more infrequent. PEM doesn't seem to have changed. So, it wasn't an overall treatment, but he feels much better and he can accomplish more. He is not well enough to return to school, but is able to keep up academically at home now.

I do not understand the principle behind this treatment or why it worked, to some extent, for this particular patient. My guess is that it improved the dysautonomia associated with his ME, but not other aspects of the illness.
 

SDSue

Southeast
Messages
1,066
One of my students who has ME with primarily OI-type and gut symptoms has achieved significant improvement in those symptoms with a P-Stim device which provides vagus nerve stimulation, if I understand correctly.
Do we know what type of doc prescribed this, and what diagnosis they used for insurance approval? Thanks!
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Is Your Nervous System Being Hacked by Bacteria in Your Gut?

The vagus nerve brings information from all over the body to the brain – but is it being hacked by the bacteria in our gut?

Some 80 per cent of the traffic along the vagus nerve is sensory information sent up to the brain by the body, and researchers are beginning to realise this has a significant influence on the mind. There is also now strong evidence from animal studies that the gut’s microbial residents – known as the microbiome – can activate the vagus nerve, with effects on brain and behaviour.

But how do gut microbes have this mind-altering affect? Bacteria that inhabit the intestines secrete waste products that can cause inflammation. They can also produce neurotransmitters, including serotonin and dopamine. This generates electrochemical signals that travel up the vagus nerve, triggering chemical changes in the brain that affect behaviour. The vagus even appears to differentiate between non-pathogenic and potentially pathogenic bacteria and induce feelings of anxiety or calm depending on the stimulus, scientists believe.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Do we know what type of doc prescribed this, and what diagnosis they used for insurance approval? Thanks!
I probably heard, but forgot. I'll ask.

ETA: Oops forgot to ask today. :oops: If I don't come back with an answer in the next day or so, please remind me. My memory is not what it used to be. :(
 
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cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
Anecdotally, I've often noticed an improvement if I don't stay in bed for long - i.e. if I have to get up early for some reason and only have about 6 hours lying down rather than the usual 10 hours, I often notice my fatigue is reduced a little.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Do we know what type of doc prescribed this, and what diagnosis they used for insurance approval? Thanks!
Okay, I got the info. :D

P-Stim devices and the newer developments (NNS?) are generally prescribed by doctors who deal with pain, so any number of them are possibilities. It becomes a question of whether the particular doctor buys into the technology or not and can be bothered to know how to use it. Some types of doctors that have used vagus nerve stimulating devices -- neurologists, pain specialists, GI specialists, and even dentists.

I got the impression that not all insurances would cover this treatment, but you would try to sell it as a treatment for pain.
 

M Paine

Senior Member
Messages
341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Dr. Michael Van ElZakker said:
I think that it’s probably an autoinflammatory condition, as opposed to autoimmune condition, that can be triggered by any number of pathogens and might be maintained by a pathogen and might be maintained by ongoing inflammatory processes in people that are prone to that.

I found this part curious, because it seems contradicted by findings of autoimmunity in patients, particularly the recent findings of elevated levels of β adrenergic and muscarinic acetylcholine receptor autoantibodies in some patients. I'd be interested to hear Dr Van ElZakker's take on this, and the Rituximab trials. Perhaps this quote is a little out of context, and he was talking about certain aspects of the pathology of this illness, rather than the illness as a whole.

A very interesting discussion from a well spoken, well informed researcher.

Nice to hear that someone is using novel technology to evaluate the innate side of pathology in the CNS as it relates to the Vagus nerve. Go Harvard. :thumbsup:
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
Two ways to stimulate your vagus nerve yourself, according to Dr. Tunis Hunt: (http://drtunisjr.com)

"The first exercise is to gargle with water several times a day. The vagus nerve activates the muscles in the back of the throat that allow you to gargle. Gargle each sip until you finish the glass of water. You should gargle long enough and deep enough to make it a bit challenging (until it produces tears). Do this several times per day for several weeks.

Another method is with the gag reflex: Purchase a box of tongue depressors so you can stimulate your gag reflex throughout the day. Do not jab the back of your throat with tongue blade and hurt yourself, just lay the tongue depressor on the back of your tongue and push down to activate a gag reflex.

Gag reflexes are like doing push-ups for the vagus while gargling is like doing sprints. It will take some time using these exercises to strengthen vagal tone and the gut-brain axis. You need to perform them for several weeks to produce change." he says.

And another site promises 28 ways to stimulate your vagus nerve (I haven't read it all yet, it's long)
http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28...agus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
Anecdotally, I've often noticed an improvement if I don't stay in bed for long - i.e. if I have to get up early for some reason and only have about 6 hours lying down rather than the usual 10 hours, I often notice my fatigue is reduced a little.
same
 

unto

Senior Member
Messages
171
Sorry, knackers 323 and Cigana, you will not be by chance occult supporters of therapies
CBT and GET ?????:D:nervous::)
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
Anecdotally, I've often noticed an improvement if I don't stay in bed for long - i.e. if I have to get up early for some reason and only have about 6 hours lying down rather than the usual 10 hours, I often notice my fatigue is reduced a little.

Do you mean you feel better with less sleep?

Can anyone tell me how less sleep ties in with this theory?
 

cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
Do you mean you feel better with less sleep?

Can anyone tell me how less sleep ties in with this theory?
I'd say some of my symptoms improve with less sleep (or at least with less lying down), though it's hard to put my finger on exactly wht is the difference in how I feel. It could also be something as simple as less sleep usually means I spend more time out of my house, so I may be avoiding mold for longer...
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
Anecdotally, I've often noticed an improvement if I don't stay in bed for long - i.e. if I have to get up early for some reason and only have about 6 hours lying down rather than the usual 10 hours, I often notice my fatigue is reduced a little.

@cigana What made you mention this. Is it referenced elsewhere in this thread? I can't see where it applies. Thanks