Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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interesting link about hormones and neurotransmitters

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by heapsreal, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I have been researching progesterone to help with sleep problems when i came accross this article which i thought was interesting. Progesterone is not just for females but males as well. I dont think this is the whole picture to me/cfs but might helps us to balance these hormones and neurotransmitters and maybe explain why some people get certain results from say 5htp etc

    My own diagnosis of CFS and FM promoted me to pursue my current career. I am now here to share my life experience with people with same disorder. What appeared to be curse turned into a blessing. Now I am less then 6 months away from getting my Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine. Every since working in a clincal setting I have seen several cases of people coming in being diagnosed with FM and CFS. When these people where further examined in dept through proper testing it was shown that they had hidden thyroid,cortisol , sex hormones imbalances that were never addressed, Typical case scenerio would be females coming in complaining of fatigue, mental fogginess, pain, depression ect, ect. When the individuals had proper hormonal evaluation it was noted that these issues where never properly addressed. Since traditional medicine does not treat for the "gray area" and numerous people are being told "Dr said my blood test are normal". I simply tell people what may be normal for one person may not be normal for other people. Once they understand this point of view there is renewal of hope. It took me over 1.5 years to fully understand the interaction of the hormone, neurological, immune, and how lifestyles are all interlinked. In order to get proper help you need to find a competent dr that will examine hormone, neurological, immune system, nutritional imbalances, lifestyle, emotional well being, ability to tolerate stress, proper sleep hygiene. When these issue start to be addressed people that have been in poor health start to amazingly start to recover. Once all of these areas are addressed CFS and FM will have a more medical explanation then these terms which simple mean "you have something but dr's do not know. When dr's understand the intricate systems of how hormones and neurotransmitters, gut and liver work then will they know how to properly handle these cases.. Be well and do settle for these conjured medical terms. You just have know where to find a Dr that will know how to handle it. When you balance mind, body, spirit then you will be able to be not better but well again.

    It took me 2 years to master these interaction below. I am always continuing to learn more.

    1. Testosterone can increase dopamine levels in the brain.
    2. Increasing dopamine levels may reduce serotonin levels - since their production is inversely related.
    3. Serotonin help reduce perceived stress and helps reduce anxiety symptoms.
    4. Reduction in serotonin level may increase the likelihood of perceived stress and anxiety.
    5. Increased perceived stress and anxiety may cause the brain to increase Adrenocorticotropic Hormone (ACTH) release.
    6. The ACTH signal is received by the adrenal glands, which in turn starts the stress response (including increasing cortisol, norepinephrine, epinephrine production, among the 50 hormones produced by the adrenals).
    7. Increased perceived stress may activate the sympathetic nervous system, which then increases output of norepinephrine from the brain as part of the fight-or-flight reaction.
    8. Increased testosterone may also lead to aromatization of testosterone to estradiol/estrone (estrogens).
    9. Estrogens have multiple effects including behavioral effects such as increasing anxiety, irritability, hyperactivity and aggression.
    10. Estrogen increases the expression of receptors and other associated proteins for neurotransmitters including serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine.
    11. Reduction in serotonin level from increased dopamine levels may affect thyroid hormone conversion in the liver from T4 to T3 via the cytochrome P450 2D6 enzyme.
    12. Reduction in active thyroid hormone may destabilize mood - perhaps contribute to anxiety, hyperactivity
    13. Estrogen itself may compete with thyroid hormone at the thyroid hormone receptor site - creating a virtual hypothyroid state - perhaps also contributing to anxiety - despite normal thyroid hormone levels.
    14. Remeron's mechanism of action includes increasing serotonin release, increasing norepinephrine release (at higher doses), and by blocking histamine receptors (accounting for sleepiness and weight gain at lower doses).
    15. Remeron, in my experience, does not work well to reduce anxiety.
    16. Increased norepinephrine levels from Remeron makes a person more likely to have anxiety when norepinephrine is further increased and serotonin decreased - from other causes - such as those written above.
    17. The higher the dose of Remeron, the higher the increase in norepinephrine, the higher the likelihood of anxiety.
    18. One of testosterone's functions is to reduce stress by reducing ACTH production from the brain and by directly reducing adrenal gland hormone production (i.e. reducing cortisol production).
    19. Should the adrenal gland, from long term exposure to anabolic steriods, become tolerant to the effects of testosterone, testosterone may not be able to reduce stress and anxiety.
    20. Adrenal insufficiency may occur from long term anabolic steriod use - where the adrenals cannot make adequate cortisol and other hormones as needed when stressed to handle stress.
    21. Adrenal insufficiency/fatigue results in intolerance of stress, fatigue, chronic sleepiness, irritability, anxiety.
    22. Tolerance to testosterone's effects in the brain may occur with long term anabolic steriod use.
    23. Testosterone usually has a calming effect. This may not occur if tolerance occurs to testosterone.
    24. With adrenal fatigue, progesterone levels are reduced.
    25. Progesterone is being shunted to create more cortisol in adrenal fatigue.
    26. Progesterone has a mood stabilizing, calming, antidepressant, sleep-promoting effects through several mechanisms of action.
    27. Progesterone increases seroronin, norepinephrine, GABA, dopamine activity in the brain. Progesterone blocks NMDA Glutamate receptors. Progesterone promotes myelination of nerves to improve signal transmission. Progesterone increases Estrogen receptor sensitivity. Progesterone promotes thyroid hormone activity.
    28. Low progesterone levels may lead to increased anxiety, insomnia, tension, and mood instability.
    29. Low testosterone levels and high cortisol levels (as a result), may lead to insulin resistance.
    30. Insulin resistance not only predisposes one to diabetes, it impairs neuron signal transmission, and directly reduces testosterone production.
    31. Insulin resistance may increase the likelihood of mood instability, anxiety, depression.
    32. A serotonin-reuptake inhibitor (a group of medications with many members) increases serotonin more specifically than other effects.
    33. Increasing serotonin has a calming effect.
    33. Increasing serotonin excessively, however, causes a reduction in dopamine production.
    34. Excessive serotonin, and subsequent reduction in dopamine causes a motor movement disorder called akathisia.
    35. Akathisia has symptoms including anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, restlessness, hyperactivity, agitation (to the point of suicide attempts by some people).
    36. When attempting to balance or optimize the effects of one hormone/neurotransmitter, one may have to balance or optmize the effects of others to obtain the desired state. Testosterone, Estrogen, Progesterone, Cortisol, Insulin, Thyroid Hormone, Dihydrotestosterone, the metabolites of progesterone, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine, Serotonin, Dopamine, GABA (gamma amino butyric acid), Glutamate, Histamine, etc. are highly interlinked in their effects - with the endpoint of allowing a person to maintain balance between health and the stress the person faces.

    http://www.chronicfatiguetreatments.com/forums/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-research-f6/topic928.html

    cheers!!!
     
    heyitisjustin likes this.
  2. maddietod

    maddietod Senior Member

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    WOW! So when you're not out saving lives as a paramedic, you're studying Naturopathy?

    What a great career-move choice.

    I've saved this info in a file. Thanks for sharing it.

    Madie
     
  3. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Interesting article but it still doesn't address why hormonal problems happen in the first place. I came across an interesting website about how infections can trigger inflammation, cortisol and then chronic illnesses - http://potbellysyndrome.com/
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    not me studying naturopath, i stole this guys blog for us to read. I just think progesterone could be one on the not so fancy hormones thats been overlooked and can maybe help us with sleep problems as it improves gaba rec[etor sensitivity. My study and research is to get me back to 100% so i can play sport and exercise and have fun again.

    cheers!!!
     
  5. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    It's only an opinion of one person who isn't an expert endocrinologist who specialises in ME and CFS.I can't even see the relevance to properly defined CFS and ME in this . Sounds more like a general stress and fatigue thing in otherwise well patients.

    For example, the references to increased cortisol when PWCFS have reduced cortisol.

    Another example, what about PWCFS who have high serotonin

    Sounds like they need to spend more than 1.5 years or 2 years to "understand" this....

    They don't sound like they have a clue yet they claim to have had a CFS diagnosis... alarm bells...

    I'd rather read proper papers by doctors on that area who study PWCFS.
     
  6. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    thanks for posting this heapsreal.this is exactly what one of my docs has been doing for me.low or high cortisol can be damaging.
    i mentioned in another thread that i was almost flatline with my adrenals,very low cortisol,low dhea and no hormones.i'm on a low does of cortef(the research i did said anything under 40mgs shouldn't cause any alarm) i'm on 15mgs.also taking dhea,and low dose creams for all hormones.i'm also supplementing with vegan adrenal drops.i have to say my energy has improved quite a bit but still not overdoing anything.i've gone several days without napping and have been tired but haven't had a crash.this is big for me.
    adrenal burnout can be caused by many things including viruses...until the cause can be found and dealt with doing this protocol can't hurt and will only help my energy.you don't have to do cortef btw there are many adrenal supplemets that work as well they may just take longer.i plan on adding a low dose of ldn this weekend.best a.
     
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I understand its one person opinion from research he has done, but its just an article i found interesting and something to look into and follow up on. I mentioned in the beginning that i dont think its the whole picture. Its progesterone that im finding interesting as it seems to be a big player in adrenal fatigue and helping with anxiety and improving sleep, many of us could do with help in this area.

    cheers!!!
     
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I have a hunch that those of us with adrenal fatigue or other abnormal hormones etc could benefit from pregnenolone. Those that react adversley to pregnenolone with agitation, anxiety and sleep issues or just have these issues without pregnenolone would benefit from progesterone. Both have a down stream effect on other hormones but seems that progesterone has a more calming effect then pregnenolone if used in the right doses. Preg generally used in the morning for energy and prog in the evening to help with sleep etc. Also possibly those that rearct to wired to dhea could also benefit from progesterone.

    I havent tried progesterone yet but will be ordering transdermal cream soon and test the waters and use doses of between 5-10mg in the evening which seems to be the dosage suggest for men. I am again using pregnenolone cream in doses of approx 10mg which seems to help with energy and stamina and abit with memory. When i get the prog i will try it by itself for awhile first and then add preg and see what effects i get. My main aim with prog is to improve my sleep, which from what i have read can help improve stage 4 deep sleep and improve gaba sensitivity which is our calming neurotransmitter and also maybe by improving this sensitivity and if still needed, benzo sleep medication will work better again and have less tolerence issues, maybe.

    An interesting link here, http://www.tidesoflife.com/pregprodhea.htm

    cheers!!!
     
  9. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    heapsreal i've noticed that my other meds seem to work better since taking these new meds.
    my sleep has definitely become deeper.
    good luck with your new trail.
     
  10. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Goodluck, Heapsreal,

    I didn't find supplementing with progesterone helped me at all (and I have low cortisol on blood / saliva tests)
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    uk, have u tried pregnenolone, may be better for cortisol and energy. Did prog do anything for sleep(if taken at night), thanks for sharing.

    Alice, thats promising to hear, was the cream u take a combo of all hormones or several different creams of individual hormones. I think its important to have a handle on all the hormones to get a better response. I have tried a few others with minimal down stream effect on other hormones and too many side effects. progesterone appears to be a better fit for me and my symptoms and past experience to pregnenolone and dhea. Time will tell.

    cheers!!!
     
  12. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    mine are in individual pots.they were too strong after a few weeks so i was able to figure out which ones to take less of.
    and so far very good.best of luck.
    ukxmrv just a suggestion..working on your adrenals will help up your cortisol.worth a shot if you haven't already.
     
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    i take the odd day off pregnenolone just so i dont get a build up in my system and to prevent getting that too much wired feeling from it even though im using very low doses like 10mg. Today i didnt use it and i could feel the difference when i was at work, my memory and concentration definately werent as good and my stamina suffered, i was feeling the urge to have that nanny nap very early in the day. I definately think that ME/cfs people need to use alot lower doses of these hormones then recommended, i think 50mg is the normal recommened dose, which i found too high for me to tolerate.
    Looking forward to trialling progesterone to see if it helps with sleep, sleep is probably the final piece of my puzzle i need to get sorted.

    cheers!!
     
  14. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Alice, I've not found that adrenal treatments have helped me in the long or medium term with my viral and PEM type ME. They didn't improve symptoms for me. Was fashionable in the 90's to try but no one in my support group for ME at the time is still trying.

    Heapsreal, had a hunt through my old notes and prescription bottles. Can't find any pregnenolene so far.

    Good luck with the progesterone. Have you had your levels tested?
     
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I had tests almost 12 months ago and progesterone were in the low normal end, dhea below range, E2 was high range and total Test was good but freeTesoosterone was low. Pregnenolone improved these markers but the dose was too high and i got side effects, very small doses seem to work well for me now. when i try the progesterone i will post another thread.
     
  16. john66

    john66 Senior Member

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    Very interesting link. I thought the comments about testosterone were right on for me.. I have only taken a two or three injections, a few years ago and they made me very short tempered and hypertensive. I never took them before and had the same reaction to 15 mg pregnenelone. I wish there were a better way to do this than self experimentation. I would like to try Dzugan, but the $2500 to enroll in their program is out of range. I just get so tired of trying to present my case to doctors to try any new therapy. It makes me feel like a beggar and nut case at the same time.
     
  17. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    The Dzugan program works great. You do have to have a doctor to work with him, one than knows about supplements.
     
  18. ty98

    ty98

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    You have presented a topic that has been one of the areas I personnaly have tried to improve. I have stumble upon some benefits from trying diifferent hormones. There is a difference between hormones and steriods. Steriods also help with relief of symptoms, but I also had some good results from supplementing hormones. I tried a dr that would do some hormone injections which just gave a little does of testosterone and within about 10 days, most of my symptoms were almost gone. I could sleep very well, vision was better, fatigue was getting better, my mental fogging was gone, helped with my obsesion about this illness, digestion, all the crap that lingers every day. I went back for some additional injections 2 months later and they suggested trying one other kind with may be even better results. This one failed terribly. It made all the issues come back and get much worse. I stopped the treatmetn to begin studing what had happened. It has been about 4 yrs since then and I am still waiting on more research to come up with better remedies. I have found that you can create an imbalance to your system with some of these. There in no endocrinologist that woudl recommend this. There has also been some discussion on growing tumors and cancers, and possible viruses. So at this point, I am waiting for some more hope in this area.
     
  19. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Sally,

    Who and what does the Dzugan work for exactly?

    Can you also point me in the direction of any research papers on this and CFS?
     
  20. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    You can google him and the program. Also, he has a book you can get to understand all he does. Helps women and men, preventing illnesses, health in general, balancing hormones for sleep, migraines, supplements are balanced. He works with your doctor. Hormones and supplements help your whole body including the eyes. That is important. He works with another doctor and it is all very interesting. You can see videos with them on google. Worth every penny, but you do have to have a good doctor to work with him.

    I have read a lot about it, but have no links saved. My CFS is rarely a problem now. We are working on my POTS now. Both will always be with me of course, but I am beginning to have a more normal life. I had been driving, shopping, on a homeowners landscaping board for my neighborhood with the CFS better, then after a hysterectomy, my POTS began. HORMONES GONE. My GYN/surgeon was SO clueless. She gave me a Climera estrogen patch. OH WOW thanks. :(I got POTS. We went to a doc supposedly an expert with hormones. He was not good either. Then, my doctor said I could call Dr. Dzugan and talk to them and just try it if I wanted. Well, the hormones I had were gone in two days. That was enough, but my cfs and pots are better.

    I also have a lot more supplements from my doctor, so I cannot say that JUST Dzugan helped, but without him, I would not be doing well. I would still be throwing up with migraines almost daily and not sleeping very well.



    http://www.dzugan.com/html/index.php

    Here is his book.


    http://www.amazon.com/Your-Blood-Doesnt-Sergey-Dzugan/dp/0615334180
     

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