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"Integrative medicine: one of the most colossal deceptions in healthcare today" (by Edzard Ernst)

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
I don't know how much is spent in other countries but I know in Ireland lots of people have spent thousands or in some cases over 10,000 Euros over the years on therapies which I think are simply placebos.

If a small amount eg. 1 or 2% had been spent on research, or if some effort had been put into fundraising, we would likely have moved the science forward. Perhaps we would have treatments or at least targets that drug companies could work on.

Governments only ever fund a fraction of the grant applicants. We need a lot of private money to fund other interesting ideas and also to provide seed money for smaller research studies which can collect data and allow them apply for bigger grants.

The relative lack of funding that has been raised has left us open to psychobabble theories.

So you're lamenting how other people spend their money? Like if only these goofs would come to believe what you believe, that they're wasting their money on crap, and then conclude to spend their sick dollars on what you think is appropriate? How arrogant is that?

It always amazes me when folks take exception to innocuous ventures others follow. And then they pretend like they're doing it out of concern: "oh I don't want these poor benighted individuals to waste their money or, even worse, deprive themselves of real treatments."

My idea of integrative medicine is using everything at one's disposal one believes to be effective. I think the best clinicians working in ME/CFS (KDM, Cheney, the vast majority of LLMD's) do this. And often there aren't studies to back up their practice, just clinical evidence.

So I'd suggest not getting your hackles up about people having the freedom to spend their money as they see fit and work on getting yourself healthy. Or perhaps you don't think you can accomplish this only some qualified scientist could get you there. Personally I think I'd probably slit my wrists if I was convinced I had to wait for this to happen.

And really, do we need to get into homeopathy again? We could always go on to some Christian sites and tell them what idiots they are... Maybe that'll be just as satisfying.

(Nothing against Christianity or any religion -just trying to make a point.)
 
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Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
So I'd suggest not getting your hackles up about people having the freedom to spend their money as they see fit and work on getting yourself healthy.
Yes, because of course the answer is definitely out there.

Unlike for other conditions, where they have to develop new therapies, the therapies already exist to get better for ME/CFS: if somebody with ME/CFS is not better, they haven't tried hard enough (according to you).
 
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Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
Yes, because of course the answer is definitely out there.

Unlike for other conditions, where they have to develop new therapies, the therapies already exist to get better for ME/CFS: if somebody with ME/CFS is not better, they haven't tried hard enough.

Basically I believe that's correct. And at least I take responsibility for my problems and don't infringe on how others handle theirs.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
I'm all about considering everything as a possibility for treatment. One could viably use immune-suppressants, surgery, diet, probiotics to treat their inflammatory bowel disease. I don't have a dog in the fight; whatever works. But if one is biased, suddenly that person has a problem with how others try to solve a problem.

Have the scientists figured out, I mean cured MS, RA, Autism, ALS, or even Cancer? Sure there are effective treatments but it's not all wrapped up. There's always room for improvement. And alternative therapies have been shown to be useful.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Dolphin said:
Dufresne said:
So I'd suggest not getting your hackles up about people having the freedom to spend their money as they see fit and work on getting yourself healthy.
Yes, because of course the answer is definitely out there.

Unlike for other conditions, where they have to develop new therapies, the therapies already exist to get better for ME/CFS: if somebody with ME/CFS is not better, they haven't tried hard enough.

Basically I believe that's correct.
Charming.

And that's a big reason why I believe more progress has been made in other conditions.

And at least I take responsibility for my problems and don't infringe on how others handle theirs.
I haven't infringed on the rights of anyone.
 

maddietod

Senior Member
Messages
2,859
Yes, because of course the answer is definitely out there.

Unlike for other conditions, where they have to develop new therapies, the therapies already exist to get better for ME/CFS: if somebody with ME/CFS is not better, they haven't tried hard enough.

So why are we all here on PR? Why are so many of us still posting questions about doctors and therapies? I've been sick for 30 years, steadily getting worse no matter what therapies I try. You're the first person to tell me I haven't tried hard enough.

I like alternative therapies. They cost almost nothing - all the ones I use can be learned from books. There are no side effects. And self-treatment gives me something positive to do while I'm on the couch all day.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Dolphin said:
Yes, because of course the answer is definitely out there.

Unlike for other conditions, where they have to develop new therapies, the therapies already exist to get better for ME/CFS: if somebody with ME/CFS is not better, they haven't tried hard enough.
So why are we all here on PR? Why are so many of us still posting questions about doctors and therapies? I've been sick for 30 years, steadily getting worse no matter what therapies I try. You're the first person to tell me I haven't tried hard enough.

You are misrepresenting what I said. I was highlighting what Dufresne said to me not agreeing with what he/she said.
I have now gone back and added "(according to you)" in case it is not clear to anyone else.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
Basically I believe that's correct. And at least I take responsibility for my problems and don't infringe on how others handle theirs.

It's not a personal attack if someone has a different opinion.

Nor is it okay to attack that person instead of debating the issue.
 
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Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
So why are we all here on PR? Why are so many of us still posting questions about doctors and therapies? I've been sick for 30 years, steadily getting worse no matter what therapies I try. You're the first person to tell me I haven't tried hard enough.

I like alternative therapies. They cost almost nothing - all the ones I use can be learned from books. There are no side effects. And self-treatment gives me something positive to do while I'm on the couch all day.

Yeah, that was me who wrote that. I never meant to imply it was easy. And nobody can be faulted for not being able to have figured it out by now. But I do believe the answer is out there for the vast majority of us. However I think it's not going to be the same fix for all of us.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
It's not a personal attack if someone has a different opinion. Nor is it okay to attack that person instead of debating the issue.

I don't think I explicitly made a personal attack. I understand what I wrote could be construed as something close to that, however.

When it comes down to it we're talking about different perspectives and I think we've the right to be critical of the other. And this is in an attempt to debate the issue.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
Everybody's entitled to their opinions. And arguing about these things every once in a while is healthy. I get concerned when ideas can lead to action that threatens the freedom of others. Like when it looks like the government is trying to shut down "alternative" Lyme testing, or is going to ban herbs, etc.

So to raise a better question, would either of you (@barbc56 or @Dolphin) support a ban on homeopathy and other "energetic therapies"?
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
So to raise a better question, would either of you (@barbc56 or @Dolphin) support a ban on homeopathy and other "energetic therapies"?

I'm not sure why you ask this question. Has anyone asked for a ban?

The issue is the merit of alternative therapies.

I don’t think I need to explain any further.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
When it comes down to it we're talking about different perspectives and I think we've the right to be critical of the other.
It is fine to critique the content of others' posts--not to critique the poster--either directly or by implication.
Everybody's entitled to their opinions. And arguing about these things every once in a while is healthy.
Again, debating politely can be healthy, not arguing.
So to raise a better question, would either of you (@barbc56 or @Dolphin) support a ban on homeopathy and other "energetic therapies"?
That is not a question for this thread and not something that either poster has suggested.

To sum up, please be polite and respectful, and keep this thread on topic.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
It is fine to critique the content of others' posts--not to critique the poster--either directly or by implication.
Again, debating politely can be healthy, not arguing.


That is not a question for this thread and not something that either poster has suggested.

To sum up, please be polite and respectful, and keep this thread on topic.

Agreed, my tone was less than cordial. I apologize for that. However I believe I was critiquing the position and not the person.

In a debate one argues a point, right? So this is a matter of connotation and word selection. Tone.

As for trying to get an opponent in a debate to take a position they seem to be angling for, that's a well recognized tactic. I don't see the harm in asking the question. If they don't wish to answer, they don't have to.

However I don't want to get into a prolonged and futile debate either. I'll be good.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
As for trying to get an opponent in a debate to take a position they seem to be angling for, that's a well recognized tactic. I don't see the harm in asking the question. If they don't wish to answer, they don't have to.
Except that the thread needs to stay on the topic defined by the OP. If someone had "run with your question" the thread would have taken an entirely different direction.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
So, let's get back to discussing:

"Integrative medicine: one of the most colossal deceptions in healthcare today" (by Edzard Ernst)
 

PennyIA

Senior Member
Messages
728
Location
Iowa
I'll be honest. The minute there is a traditional medical treatment that cures or improves my condition as well as the alternative treatments I've followed? I would jump on it. I have not had that opportunity provided to me.

My traditional Internist? Has offered me potassium after I got the integrative md to test me and find me low in it.

My traditional Internist? Offered B12 shots (cyanocobalamin) which made me feel great for two weeks then crash.

My traditional Internist keeps trying to push antidepressants on me - the last time I broke down to try it (was supposed to help with diarrhea as well) - I almost died as I had vasovagal syncope as a side effect while in the shower and collapsed.

My integrative MD has offered me more options, I've taken the ones that were inexpensive and relatively harmless, skipped on the more 'woo-woo' options that seemed too far out there for my personal believe system to swallow (magnetic, light therapies, etc).

And I'm now at the point where I've been gainfully employed for almost an entire two years with only mild one or two day crashes.

Is it perfect? Nope. Don't consider myself cured. But if I was still only dealing with a traditional Internist? I'd be on long term disability at this point. Is it feasible I'll land on it in the future? Yes. But if I can postpone it and get a few more raises in the meantime, my long term disability payments will be higher. I'm going to keep working as long as I can... and from a personal and clinical experience? Some of the treatments are helping.

That said. I'm still donating money towards finding a cure... towards medical studies for ME/CFS... towards anything I can find that seems like they're heading down a path to finding a biomarker.... because honestly? working full time means I have more money to do both - treat myself to the best of my abilities and that of the integrative MD and donate towards finding something to help us.