insomnia

[runner64]

Hi, sorry if I wasn't clear, yes I am taking Citicoline. I am sure that's the reason I am sleeping now. I haven't changed anything else.

BTW this web page has interesting info on normal sleep, and abnormal sleep in illness (insomnia, unrefreshing sleep and why it's unrefreshing). It talks about natural remedies for sleep problems and discusses prescription drugs. It's from a book about Lyme disease but the info is relevant to all ill people:
http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-disease-sleep-insomnia

Hi Athene, I am going to read more about the Citicoline. I'm misread you, I think you were clear in saying you were taking it.

I do want to say, and forgive me. I am very well educated with sleep ideas, therapy's, and more specifically sleep meds such as benzodiazipines and the z-drugs the above author of the book mentions. This whole arena I understand very very well. I said it was personal my not taking them therefore what I post now is not to dissuade but many are unaware what these drugs do simply not being told or given "transparent informed consent." I did take klonopin not knowing what it was and was very sick coming off. Benzodiazipine withdrawal syndrome is the name of the syndrome many get with abrupt quits. I wasn't told by 3 GP's I need to taper in order to quit and didn't know I could reinstate to taper once I abruptly quit. I was sick on the drug, put pieces together late like many. I helped people for 2 years until very recently get off this drug. Genetics dictates if a benzo or z-drug will change the brain of one or not. I'm active in the community for awareness.

When you educate yourselves you will understand these were only intended for 2-4 weeks. Or sporadic doses so the brain wouldn't change. It's proven, if a low dose is taken consistently the brain can change in 7 days. Dependence unwittingly. In the UK it's called, "involuntary addiction". I have many friends there in parliament trying to get changes and the UK Public Health Minister Ann Milton has come aboard to help get change. She's now educated with this. And Dr. Heather Ashton who studied the drug and people on it from years ago and warning the mainstream docs of the truths, is in the forefront helping.

I explain what this drug does to the brain in this link reply #68. That is called "the mechanism of action". Z-drugs go to the same place as benzodiazipines. Z-drugs are Lunesta, Ambien, Sonata, Imovane. Generic names of z-drugs are Zolipidem= Ambien, Eszopiclone=Lunesta etc. Z's okay?

If you read my reply #66 I explain z-drugs to the poster as he is on one and a benzodiazipine together. I write down what is involved in a taper combing the two. The bottom paragraph of reply #68 explains z-drgs like Ambien, Lunesta go by the same as a benzo.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ed-Klonopin-Valium-taper-life-is-a-mess/page7

I am writing a book to raise awareness for people on it, and their families. There are many books written by people who went through what I did. I won a court case on paper but couldn't get the Supreme Court to extend statute. It's almost impossible for medical malpractice. Canada has a longer statute. I'm from Canada, but it happened while living in the states. I found one of the few lawyers too late that 'gets' these drugs. Many are winning in the UK and starting to in the US as they were not told the truth like I wasn't. I'm off Klonopin now. I finally slept after 8 months off. At 12 months off k, I was still sick in bed with many benzo symptoms, and got hit with CFS symptoms on top when my saline implant deflated, so back to broken sleep.

But this is why I won't take anything other than benadryl or the occasional gravol now. My brain nuero wise has been through the mill. I'm very educated now on many other drugs and how they affect the brain and central nervous system.

 

[Valentijn]

I have trouble falling asleep though beat. I wake after an hour. Lay awake, it's cycles me back to sleep. That goes 3-5 times in a 3-4 hour period. Sometimes less than that. It actually feels like I'm twilight only sometimes. And my brain starts to travel in thought like it's almost in sleep, but it's like a "pulse" inside, wakes it right back up. I lay awake. Brain trying to shut down around this "pulse". Terrible.

One cause of the "wired but tired" nastiness in ME/CFS could be elevated levels of glutamate, an excitatory neurotransmitter. I had this problem, and taking N-acetylcysteine (NAC) before bedtime has helped a lot. I still wake up from pain, etc, but I don't spend hours with my mind spinning before I can fall back to sleep.

The cysteine in NAC is a natural amino acid, and shouldn't cause any side effects unless you're prone to getting kidney stones made of cysteine. It's available over-the-counter. As a beneficial extra (if you do have high glutamate and high glycine), it creates glutathione, which we tend to be low in.

 

[runner64]

Hi Valentjin. I am familiar with glutamate and thankyou so much. I appreciate your insight as well. My body produced much of that from my first deal and when almost healed I got hit again with this CFS. It's like a loud "rush" nuero wise with rapid thoughts as a physical symptom that's constant 24/7 and has been for a long time. Is your mind thing constant?

http://www.raysahelian.com/acetylcysteine.html
I read this on NAC. It has many benefits Valintjin. I'm glad it's helping you. It says it's a glutathione precursor? I take a glutathione precusor called MAX GLC a glutathione accelerater. Same thing kinda? I am treating my CFS with doxy like it's from pathogens but look at look at other possible variables contributing. I read when these bacteria target the neuro they give these same neuro symptoms I have too. You have bad pain!! I'm so so sorry. Gosh.......I have pain down, but body tremors, vibrations.

I apologize for interrupting your thread hurtingallthetime. Everyone, you included are very insightful and I get carried away. I'll start a thread and ask some symptom questions. I'm sorry you hurt as well.

 

[Valentijn]

I read this on NAC. It has many benefits Valintjin. I'm glad it's helping you. It says it's a glutathione precursor? I take a glutathione precusor called MAX GLC a glutathione accelerater. Same thing kinda?

Yeah, it looks like MAX GXL does have NAC in it, though just 375mg. A 600mg extended release dose of NAC before bed gets me through the night, and another 1200 during the day keeps my brain from trying to fry itself

My mind thing was constant before I started on the high dose NAC. I tried a mix similar to MAX GXL before doing plain NAC, and that also helped a lot (and temporarily made my NMH go away), but that dose of NAC wasn't enough to take care of the sleeping/brain firing problems.

 

[mellster]

I used to be on a morning and evening regimen of 600 mg NAC and it has helped me in many ways - most likely as a glutathione precursor.

 

[Dreambirdie]

How about trying Citicoline? Made by Jarrow, it's nutrient rather than a drug, which I always prefer trying first. My insomnia was terrible but after only one week I am already sleeping most of the night.

I started a thread about it here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?16044-Anyone-else-taking-Citicoline

Based on the (lack of) reaction to the thread, apparently nobody else IS taking citicoline!!!

Hi Athene--

I have taken just about every natural sleep aid known to humans, but have never even heard of this one...?

And actually, upon reading about it, I have learned it's used primarily for memory impairment and ADD, not specifically for sleep.

Here's some info about it from wikipedia (my bold):

"Citicoline (INN), also known as cytidine diphosphate-choline (CDP-Choline) & cytidine 5'-diphosphocholine is a psychostimulant/nootropic. It is an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline. Sold in over 70 countries under a variety of brand names: Ceraxon, Cognizin, NeurAxon, Somazina etc.

This chemical is used by NHK Labs, USA in its dietary supplements.

Studies suggest that CDP-choline supplements increase dopamine receptor densities,[1] and suggest that CDP-choline supplementation can ameliorate memory impairment caused by environmental conditions.[2] Preliminary research has found that citicoline supplements help improve focus and mental energy and may possibly be useful in the treatment of attention deficit disorder.[3][4] Citicoline has also been shown to elevate ACTH independent of CRH levels and to amplify the release of other HPA axis hormones such as LH, FSH, GH and TSH in response to hypothalamic releasing factors.[5]

These effects on HPA hormone levels may be beneficial for some individuals but, may have undesirable effects in those with medical conditions featuring ACTH or cortisol hypersecretion including, but not limited to, PCOS, type II diabetes and major depressive disorder.[6][7]"

I wonder why/how it has helped your sleep. Do you have any ideas about that?

 

[adreno]

I would be surprised if CDP-choline (citicoline) helps anyone sleep. Usually cholinergics impair sleep, not improve it. That is also why anti-cholinergic drugs are sleep enhancing.

 

[runner64]

Yeah, it looks like MAX GXL does have NAC in it, though just 375mg. A 600mg extended release dose of NAC before bed gets me through the night, and another 1200 during the day keeps my brain from trying to fry itself

My mind thing was constant before I started on the high dose NAC. I tried a mix similar to MAX GXL before doing plain NAC, and that also helped a lot (and temporarily made my NMH go away), but that dose of NAC wasn't enough to take care of the sleeping/brain firing problems.

This is great info. So, if I try a higher dose, it may help IF it's the neurotransmitters overfiring from glutamate etc. If it's pathogen caused, maybe not. So worth a try. But the lessor dose didn't take it away for you. Got it. It was constant for you too huh? You know exactly what I am talking about then. It's exhausting. Sheesh. It helped your NMH for a bit? I have to look up what that is. When you said, "It keeps your brain from trying to fry itself," I so get it. That's how it feels.

Hi Mellster, thanks for chiming in as well.

*And, after reading more about the cytocoline and already knowing acetycholine is an "excitory nuerotransmitter", it's reads above choline's in it, I just don't think cytocoline's a good fit for me. Anti-cholinergics like Benadryl's, gravol's etc, cancel out acetycholine and enhance sleep as said above. Psychostimulant. My neuro's too sensitive.

Wiki says this about choline:"In 1975 scientists discovered that the administration of choline increased the synthesis and release of acetylcholine by neurons."

I didn't put 2 and two together at first as it's called citocoline without the H in choline lol.

 

[uni]

I had insomnia before and still don't have the best sleep quality, but somethings which have helped:

-eating some food before bedtime
-small dose of lexapro (2.5mg)
-clonidine - which acts to reduce norepinephrine signaling
-hydrocortisone (controversial treatment, but low cortisol can cause sleep problems, so can high cortisol - best not to use HC unless your doc has measured your AM cortisol)

 

[dannybex]

Yeah, it looks like MAX GXL does have NAC in it, though just 375mg. A 600mg extended release dose of NAC before bed gets me through the night, and another 1200 during the day keeps my brain from trying to fry itself

My mind thing was constant before I started on the high dose NAC. I tried a mix similar to MAX GXL before doing plain NAC, and that also helped a lot (and temporarily made my NMH go away), but that dose of NAC wasn't enough to take care of the sleeping/brain firing problems.

That is interesting Valentijn. I haven't tried NAC in six months or so, and now of course can't remember what my plasma cysteine level was...think it was low-normal.

Do you know if your glycine or glutamine/glutamate levels were high?

Also, are you doing any methylation stuff -- b12's and folates?

Thanks.

d.

 

[dannybex]

I would be surprised if CDP-choline (citicoline) helps anyone sleep. Usually cholinergics impair sleep, not improve it. That is also why anti-cholinergic drugs are sleep enhancing.

Yes, ditto what Adreno said. I too couldn't help but notice what Dreambirdie did as well...that it stimulates cortisol secretion. Must be some sort of...paradoxical (sp) reaction that Athene is experiencing?

My poor adrenals are shooting out erratically high cortisol at times, although even if one had low cortisol, I would think that stimulation would be the last thing they need. But...I'm seriously don't know enough about it. I do find that 'plain ol' choline bitartrate makes me very OCD-ish, without fail.

 

[adreno]

Yes, ditto what Adreno said. I too couldn't help but notice what Dreambirdie did as well...that it stimulates cortisol secretion. Must be some sort of...paradoxical (sp) reaction that Athene is experiencing?

My poor adrenals are shooting out erratically high cortisol at times, although even if one had low cortisol, I would think that stimulation would be the last thing they need. But...I'm seriously don't know enough about it. I do find that 'plain ol' choline bitartrate makes me very OCD-ish, without fail.

Well, you'll actually sleep very well on a dose of cortisol. Try it.

I take CDP choline in the morning. It doesn't seem to impair my sleep (after the first few days), but it doesn't improve it either. I believe its cortisol boosting effects are very mild. And BTW, anything that boost acetylcholine levels, will also boost cortisol release, at least acutely.

 

[Valentijn]

Do you know if your glycine or glutamine/glutamate levels were high?

Also, are you doing any methylation stuff -- b12's and folates?

My glycine and glutamate both tested very high. Approximately 50% above the max end of the normal range for each. I didn't have cysteine tested at the time, but I have had elevated homocysteine in the past, which could reflect trouble converting homocysteine into cysteine.

I have been doing richvank's methylation protocol for a while now (albeit with much higher amounts of hydroxyB12), and had started it a few months prior to starting on a NAC mix.

 

[runner64]

Valintijn, I just read a lot of research on NAC cancelling out glutamate. I'm glad you suggested that. It's quite a strong anti-oxidant for heavy metals too and I have to eventually get my mercury fillings out which of course only have a neg affect on things as well. So you take, extended release 1000 mg by day and 600mg at night. This link said 100 - 500 mg a day. But the testimonial from the link below took a higher dose like you did with a great outcome. I'll put this on my "list" to buy. Thanks again.

http://www.raysahelian.com/acetylcysteine.html
I have been taking NAC for a couple of years now with great results -- 1200mg a day in a drink that I make that includes other vitamins and herbals just before breakfast. I have some interesting autoimmune issues: autoimmune thyroiditis, Raynaud's and erythromalalgia. For about 20 years I had consistent, elevated liver enzymes although for the last 4 years or so they have been normal. I added NAC after reading one of Sherri Roger's books on detoxification and found that I noticed a clearer head, less pain and overall improved energy. However, I have been taking many other nutritional supplements and have made some dramatic changes in my diet over the years.

 

[Athene]

Hi Athene--

I have taken just about every natural sleep aid known to humans, but have never even heard of this one...?

And actually, upon reading about it, I have learned it's used primarily for memory impairment and ADD, not specifically for sleep.

Here's some info about it from wikipedia (my bold):

"Citicoline (INN), also known as cytidine diphosphate-choline (CDP-Choline) & cytidine 5'-diphosphocholine is a psychostimulant/nootropic. It is an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline. Sold in over 70 countries under a variety of brand names: Ceraxon, Cognizin, NeurAxon, Somazina etc.

This chemical is used by NHK Labs, USA in its dietary supplements.

Studies suggest that CDP-choline supplements increase dopamine receptor densities,[1] and suggest that CDP-choline supplementation can ameliorate memory impairment caused by environmental conditions.[2] Preliminary research has found that citicoline supplements help improve focus and mental energy and may possibly be useful in the treatment of attention deficit disorder.[3][4] Citicoline has also been shown to elevate ACTH independent of CRH levels and to amplify the release of other HPA axis hormones such as LH, FSH, GH and TSH in response to hypothalamic releasing factors.[5]

These effects on HPA hormone levels may be beneficial for some individuals but, may have undesirable effects in those with medical conditions featuring ACTH or cortisol hypersecretion including, but not limited to, PCOS, type II diabetes and major depressive disorder.[6][7]"

I wonder why/how it has helped your sleep. Do you have any ideas about that?

Hi,
Yes I read this stuff too and I don't know why it would help, but it says on the container that it improves sleep, so there must be some reason they would claim that.
The only thing I could find is this:
https://www.bevkovitamins.com/products/category/17/sleep-health
Nutrients Here are several nutrients that naturally enhance healthy sleep. These include glycine, taurine, rhodiola, Melatonin and Phosphatidylcholine. Glycine and taurine are amino acids that act as inhibitory neurotransmitters. Simply defined, inhibitory neurotransmitters serve as brakes for the bodys electrical impulses. This has a calming effect on the brain, making it easier to fall asleep. Rhodiola is an herb that helps the body adapt to and resist physical, chemical, and environmental stress. People who have trouble falling asleep often are prone to stress. Rhodiola can reduce stress, helping people have more restful sleep. The Bevko product Calmatrin contains these three nutrients. Melaserine is a Bevko product that contains melatonin. Melatonin is a hormone released by the brain that is involved in regulating our biological clock. It is released in response to darkness, and its production is inhibited by light-- Melatonin basically lets the body know when it is time for sleep. Melatonin supplementation is often recommended to promote the falling-asleep process in both men and women, but it can be especially helpful for menopausal women. Phosphatidylcholine is a main component of sphingomyelin, the protective coating for all of your nerves. It also contains choline, which is critical to the production of the most abundant neurotransmitter in your body, acetylcholine. Phosphatidylcholine plays an important role in maintaining healthy nerve cells, which translates to healthy sleep.

 

[heyitisjustin]

I would be surprised if CDP-choline (citicoline) helps anyone sleep. Usually cholinergics impair sleep, not improve it. That is also why anti-cholinergic drugs are sleep enhancing.

Alpha GPC seems to help me sleep. I assume it is helping my body convert histamine to HCL. It does depend on the time of day I take it though. If I take it late at night I will have worse sleep. Some people say they have better sleep with citocoline or uridine. Personally, those sound more stimulating and I've been afraid to try them. What is the current thinking on CDP/uridine and sleep?

 

[perchance dreamer]

I would be surprised if CDP-choline (citicoline) helps anyone sleep. Usually cholinergics impair sleep, not improve it.

I take citicoline late in the day because it makes me sleepy.