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Input requested on possible changes to simplified methylation protocol

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, May 30, 2012.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So you think potassium citrate capsules are ok?
    I have quinoa and brown rice on a regular basis too. And I have 1/2 cup of raw oat bran in my protein shake every day. 2.6 mg of manganese just from the oat bran. Oat bran is really high in protein too which is nice. I probably should cut back on the manganese I'm supplementing with...
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Seems it's not ok, after all:
    http://www.drugs.com/pro/potassium-citrate.html

    I don't think the AKG tabs are a problem though, because they are not solid potassium, but mixed with other stuff. It's the concentrated potassium that is the problem.

    Oats sound good too, but it's hard to find ones that aren't contaminated with gluten...
    Lotus97 likes this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you have Celiac's? My understanding was that the gluten in oats are only in trace amounts which wouldn't bother most people. iHerb does have oat products that claim to be gluten free
    http://www.iherb.com/Search?kw=gluten free oat&x=0&y=0#none
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Never been tested for celiacs, but I do get worse on gluten, so I avoid it. Same with casein.

    Oats by themselves are gluten free, but they are milled at the same facilities as wheats, that's the problem. I will try some from iHerb, thanks :)
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Looks like oats are also high in magnesium, potassium, zinc, folate, and copper. The link lists amount for a cup which is like 3 servings, but it's still a lot
    http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5708/2
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    While I am sure potassium of any form in high amounts as pills can cause GI issues, the doses they mentioned for K-citrate is 95 mEq / day. That is 3.71 grams of elemental potassium as potassium citrate or roughly 37 pills of 99 mg potassium citrate. Yes at those levels there will be real problems.

    For over 2 years I took 40-60 mEq / day as extended KCL release and that ended up carving my gut pretty bad.

    I basically now supplement less than 1000 mg per day as gluconate or a bit of citrate but get 80-90% of potassium
    in food. Still trying to balance it out, but I can usually get 6-8 grams per day in food which is MUCH better tolerated by
    the gut imo. Great sources are potato, avocado, spinach, most fruits, green beans, you even get a lot in meats. Nuts are a decent source too, especially walnuts and pecans.

    I remember reading somewhere that the forms found in nature in food are quite a variety, including citrate, carbonate, sorbate, glutamate (more than you might think), oxide, gluconate, etc. I will see what I can dig up.

    I think the issue is more with the concentrated aspect of a pill. There are powders you could try provided you supply a lot of fluid at the same time. My results with them have been mixed. You could also consider sprinkling very tiny amounts of No Salt substitute which is KCL but I have not tried that yet since the chloride stimulates HCL in the gut.

    Potassium is not only very important to me because of the methylation needs (which I still don't think anyone really understands, most seems conjecture to me) but also since I take 0.1 mg of florinef every morning.

    In truth if a person is chronically hypokalemic (remember the tests are usually fasting 10-12 hours and done in the morning before you load up), it is my opinion that there is almost ALWAYS another reason involving the kidneys, low taurine, low magnesium intracellular, acidosis, Na-K ATP pump activity, diuretics, medications, things that down-regulate 11 beta HSD1, or other dysfunctions of the metabolism, etc.

    4 to 5 grams is easy to get in a reasonable diet and should be more than enough. The exception may be people who are really over-driving the methylation cycle. But that should still be possible to handle with food prioritization.

    I found on 800 mcg FolaPro , 800 mcg folinic acid, 5000 mcg mb12, 2.15 mg adb12, 500 mg TMG, 75 mg sublingual P5p, 50 mg riboflavin and 50 mg r5p-sodium / and 200-400 mg SAMe then I had to get 9-10 grams a day to function
    and was pounding 3000 mg+ in supplements and raping my gut but if I did not muscle pain was intolerable and I had chronic insomnia. But when I stopped over-methylating (dropped the dose of P5p, r5p) and removed SAMe, TMG, and folinic acid, I seem fine with 7-8 grams of which I take at most 1000 in pill form, usually 600-800. And I am even debating if I need that.

    Remember though potassium labs in a CMP are usually done in the morning after a fast, so that will be your low point almost by definition. Again just be careful. Your gut may not need the punishment you may be tossing its way if you supplement hard. And trust me if the gut is not happy, then it affects a LOT of things. That being said be really careful about concentrated pills. I literally burned myself for a long time. Once I stepped back on overmethylating, then my body's needs for potassium dropped.

    Note it is my firm belief that the need for potassium on methylation cycle support is still not well understood. I was getting 250 meQ per day in food and supplements but urinating 250 meQ per day in a 24 hour urinanalysis. That is just whacked and there is no way the small dose of florinef I take can explain the 250 meQ excreted (my doctors agreed but were flabbergasted nonetheless). Something is missing in the theories of why potassium is key since NONE of them explain high urination to my knowledge.

    And I am baffled as the rest on that topic for now ....

    Regarding oats:

    A person with actual Celiac's (like myself) not simply gluten intolerance would be wise to avoid oats according to my doctors. Any trace amounts of gluten are very bad for a Celiac sufferer. Just my two cents. You can find all sort of posts on this on various Celiac forums running around on the Internet.
    adreno and Lotus97 like this.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hmm, didn't realize meats had potassium. Not a huge amount, but it all adds up. Looks like they also have a decent amount of choline too. I was wondering does the amount of sodium you consume affect the amount of potassium you need? My blood pressure medication says it lowers sodium and also not to take too much potassium so I kind of figured that if I consume more sodium and I also need more potassium to balance it out, but I have no idea if that's actually necessary. Also, would taking Aloe Vera juice and DGL be effective in healing the gut? Regular licorice would be no good since that lowers potassium and raises blood pressure.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Regular licorice is a disaster waiting to happen imo. It blocks the 11 Beta HSD1 function of turning cortisol into cortisone so the cortisol does not directly affect the mineralcorticoid receptors en masse and instead allow aldosterone to have the fine control of the electrolyte balance based on potassium (not sodium) fluctuations.

    DGL also has some of this activity (don't let anyone tell you otherwise) but at a small fraction, so some DGL should be ok. DGL and a high salt diet with someone like myself who takes both florinef and glucocorticoids regularly is at a higher risk for problems, so unless my gut is killing me, I do not use DGL.

    Aloe vera and I tend not to get along at the toilet bowl if you get my meaning.

    I find Sialex from Ecological Formulas to be very helpful, it contains mucin and sialic acid which are used in IBS, chronic reflux, Crohn's, etc.

    Now for salt and potassium:

    The two electrolytes are meant to be in balance but that balance is supposed to have little to do with what you take in barring medications and other supplements. It is meant to be managed by your angiotensin-renin-aldosterone pathway with cortisol having no significant impact at the mineralcorticoid receptors.

    There is an interdependency between sodium and potassium but contrary to popular belief aldosterone reacts to potassium changes FAR more than it does changes in sodium. But remember potassium is meant to be mostly inside of cells while sodium outside cells, a delicate balance that involves proper functioning Na-K+ ATPase pumps.

    Having more aldosterone tells cells in the body to lay down more Na-K+ ATPase pumps on the cellular membranes which can be helpful provided there is enough ATP and enough T3 (yes that thyroid T3). Think of aldosterone as telling the cells to lay down more factories, the ATP is the electricity to power those factories, and the T3 is used to make the factories more efficient, all contributing to the shuffle exchange of Na and K+ ions across the boundary.

    This is especially key for cells in kidney in the renal tubules. Here the pumps when active pull Na back into the blood and exchange for potassium which is sent out through the lumen and out the body (it is more complicated but that is a fair description for here I hope). So higher aldosterone means more tendency to hold onto Na (and hence more water) and more tendency to flush SERUM potassium. The reason I highlighted "serum" is that the tendency to hold potassium inside of non-kidney cells depends on many factors like the ATPase pump activity, presence of sufficient intracellular Mg+2 ions, taurine, and H+ ion concentrations (i.e. pH of blood). If Na levels get too high and serum osmolality changes too much, the level of anti-diuretic hormone (ADH) will be affected, effecting urination frequency and level of thirst (though other factors affect thirst also).

    So the short answer is yes salt intake has effect on potassium AND water in the body BUT not that much if the body is functioning well as it stays in a stable homeostasis regardless of what you ingest (otherwise ancient man would have died off and we would not be here: think of how their intakes of electrolytes varied a lot from day to day).

    However, if a person is dysfunctional in terms of their adrenals, or their kidneys, or in terms of the angiotensin-renin-aldosterone pathway, or in their pituitary signaling, or take in excessive amounts of electrolytes, or have low ATP levels and thus poor Na-K+ ATPase, or certain medications, or defective activity of 11 beta HSD1, etc. then taking in a lot of salt may lower serum potassium levels and affect water levels (edema vs dehydration, etc.) now to mention the cardiovascular effects.

    Personally I think salt gets a bad rap, but I think people consume through their life much more salt than potassium in a relative sense. Most of our ancient ancestors did not have access to high levels of sodium in foods. That is a luxury. But potassium is in almost all non-processed, non-refined foods. That is probably a bigger reason for the CV impact, and of course people get all flustered when it is almost too late to turn things around and drop their salt intake precipitously which in turn impacts a LOT of other bodily systems ... so yeah as a species modern man is kind of not so bright imho :)

    I think any of us who have tried higher amounts of methylation will agree that potassium is needed the more you ramp up. But I don't yet buy the hypotheses that have been suggested for why ... still it is real and has to be handled appropriately.

    If you ask me I think the most common fault for most people with chronic problems that touches on electrolytes is their poorly functioning Na-K+ ATPase pumps. Either a) their aldosterone control is compromised and they don't lay down enough factories, b) their T2 is terrible and their factories work poorly, c) they are low in ATP stores and have less capacity to recycle ATP due to Krebs cycle partial blocks, or oxidative stress, or chronic hypoxia at the cellular level and hence their factories are under-powered or d) they have some issues with some of the other defective potassium / sodium membrane channels that impact transport as well (but that is a big unknown I fear).

    At least that is my two cents.
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  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I can understand why you'd want to be cautious since you have Celiac's, but here's what it says on Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free Products (not all of Bob's Red Mill products are gluten free though)
    Bob's Red Mill products labeled gluten free are batched tested in our quality control laboratory. We use an ELISA Gluten Assay test to determine if a product is gluten free.
  10. thinpaperwings

    thinpaperwings

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    Oats contain a protein similar to the glutens in wheat, rye, and barley. In oats it's called avenin. Some people with celiacs disease react to it, and some don't. The research isn't clear as to wether it's a problem in general, but it's clearly a problem for some (and even for some who don't have a noticeable reaction to it: http://www.celiac.com/articles/840/1/Oats-Intolerance-in-Celiac-Disease). So it's good to proceed with caution. But don't assume that generic oats have too little gluten to cause a problem, and don't assume that certified gluten-free oats are ok for all people with celiac disease.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't have Celiac's, but my doctor told me I should avoid gluten. I don't have any noticeable reaction to gluten, but I've been avoiding it for the most part as a precaution. Do you think I should limit my intake of oat products too?
  12. thinpaperwings

    thinpaperwings

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    It's entirely up to you. The way I see it, it *could* cause a problem, and given that it can do so without triggering diarrhea, I'd rather give up oatmeal in order to get better and get my life back. I had originally planned to test out gluten free oats after my gut has had enough time to heal, say 2 years of eating gluten free, but with what I've read (quick searches on pubmed), I'm starting to doubt I'll ever add them back.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    If it is just a proviso from the doctor to avoid gluten then if you use high quality flour from somewhere like what you listed it is probably ok. But be aware of any GI symptoms.

    To paraphrase what Thinpaperwings said above: is it really worth it, though? Certainly not for a person with Celiac's.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've had 2 different doctors tell me to cut out Gluten, but it wasn't based on any GI symptoms. I've read something about Gluten causing food sensitivities so that's part of the reason I stopped. I've also heard Gluten related to leaky gut and candida. My parents don't eat gluten and say they feel better after stopping gluten. But if you asked me if I think I have a gluten problem I would have a hard to saying yes. Still, this information about oats is good to know in case someone with a definite gluten problem asks me about it. What about quinoa and rice? Are they ok if they're labeled gluten free?
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yes. Though some people who have had Celiac's do not react well to all the agglutinin in the rice. It is not a sensitivity per se just the damage from all the years of gluten makes it hard to process. There is no gluten in rice unless it is processed on the same machines that have processed other gluten products. Quinoa is ok (except I have a direct allergy to quinoa). Buckwheat is non-gluten alternative also (except I have direct allergy to that also). Millet is yet another possibility (fortunately I can eat that but don't usually since I am a hyper fast oxidizer in my metabolism).
  16. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I suffer from both.

    For me wired & tired is glutamate excitotoxicitiy - my body can lay still but my mind is racing, often over the same ground over & over, which is maddening.. to the point I have to get up and drown it out with an action movie or video game until it passes. Now that I know what not to eat I suffer from this a lot less than I used to. But I'm still a very light sleeper, waking up every time the fan kicks on or the neighbor's dog sees a squirrel.

    NE is a rarer occurrence - there's a mental distress plus a physical discomfort, and I can feel my heart beating in my chest. I've woken up from a dead sleep to this feeling with absolutely no idea why or what I'm afraid of - no nightmare or otherwise obvious cause - it's completely endogenous.
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yes what you describe with the sensory stuff is likely glutamate overstimulaton. Which fits into your posts in the other thread that you are depleted in Mg and your NMDA receptors are over-active.

    But the term "wired but tired" can also apply to chronic norepinephrine states. What you described is an acute norepinephrine "power" surge. For many years I had both the acute attacks and the chronic problem. Most people on these forums who say "wired but tired" is more about chronic stress and NE imbalances than glutamate. You can tell by the way they describe their symptoms. They talk about anxiety, irritability, heart racing, insomnia, but neglect the sensory and hypothalmic stuff which is classic glutamate. Both can cause pain but for different reasons.
  18. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I never considered my daily anxiety/paranoia as a chronic NE state - I assumed it was because of low glutathione, a bad amygdala and being halfway schizophrenic - but it could be NE as well.

    I wonder if this explains why I feel bad when I take a lot of vitamin D3. Supposedly a spike in cholecalciferol leads to elevated tyrosine hydroxylase which leads to increased catecholamines.. which in my case is not a good thing.
  19. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    >>But if you asked me if I think I have a gluten problem I would have a hard to saying yes.

    I'm the same, but once I did it, my gut has improved in terms of things that I eat not bothering me that used to bother me. Also, my blood chemistry labs are better -- blood sugar is improved, cholesterol is down, etc. It forces you to eat at home more and eat less rich foods. So there are numerous benefits. Some of the changes I've had have taken months to be noticeable.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think I have both too. I've recently found that transdermal magnesium seems to be useful. I was reading recently that NE can lower GABA so couldn't there potentially be a relationship between the two? If GABA is lowered the NMDA stimulation would be worse.
    Hmm, I wonder if I should cut back on my D3. I'm taking 5000 IU a day. It hasn't caused me problems in the past, but recently it seems everything is causing me problems
    That's interesting because Rich seemed to think excitotoxicity from methylation could possibly be caused by a drop in glutathione:
    A lot of people experience it when they start this protocol. It's due to too much glutamate in the synapses of the neurons in the brain. The glutamate is supposed to be pumped out and converted to glutamine by the astrocytes, and sent back to the neurons for re-use, but this takes ATP, and when glutathione is low, the mitochondria do not produce ATP as fast as normal. When this protocol is started, I suspect that glutathione initially drops even more, and that is what causes the excitotoxicity. Various things have been recommended by Amy Yasko to counter this, including GABA, theanine, magnesium, Valerian root, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone cream, and taurine.

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