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Input requested on possible changes to simplified methylation protocol

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, May 30, 2012.

  1. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Dan,

    What you say makes alot of sense. And its vital for someones recovery to take health and pace into their own hands, especially with such a complex problem. I take supplements i want and what im ready to try. Whenever i saw naturopaths and nutritionists and tried it their way, i felt crap. Listening to ourselves is important!
  2. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    aHas Rich changed to his new protocol yet.......I have not heard any further talk about this so I guess we are still on the same one. Rich can you update us. I need to reorder supplements and was waiting to hear if there would be a change
    Googsta likes this.
  3. Googsta

    Googsta Doing Well

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    Same here Junie.

    Rich said:
    In that case I figure I could just go ahead with Solgar Metafolin instead? I already have some here.

    Holistic Health has been out of Methylmate B for way too long.
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Right, you can use Solgar instead.
    Googsta likes this.
  5. Gisli Þrains

    Gisli Þrains

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    3 things come to my mind. Hope this is of some help. It´s basicly some references to few things I have been reading. Thanks Rich for your wonderful work and interest in our wellbeing. Have been 4 weeks on a methylation protocol based on yours (can´t get the Holistic Heal supplements where I live so I had to research and found Solgar and Jarrows etc. and some other supplements. I use your amounts ). I´m doing this with my doctor.

    1) Thorne Basic Nutrients V has lots of Niacin (
    Niacin (130 mg as Niacinamide and 30 mg as Niacin)
    160 mg
    ). Have read some stuff of Dr. Ben Lynch´s where he says that Methylation is quenched by taking Niacin ( http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/ ).

    2) Thorne Basic Nutrients V has no Trimethylglysine (some 100 mg. Choline though).

    3) I wonder about the quality/type of Methylfolate in the Thorne supplement - don´t have a clue what it is but at the same time I feel secure in knowing Solgar Metafolin is from Merck (Some thoughts here: http://mthfr.net/l-methylfolate-methylfolate-5-mthf/2012/04/05/ ).

    btw. Would love to buy a Rabbit Mountain supplement brand :)

    Thanks Phoenix Rising

    Gisli Iceland
  6. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    Thanks Gisli I wish Rich would come and give more info as to where he is with his thinking on this change.........he must be still mulling it over. Has anyone changed to the "possibly new protocol" I'm getting low on stuff and need to reorder.
    I'm excited and thankful Rich continues to think and tweak and guide us. I know I am better since being on his protocol for a little over a yr. and look forward to any changes he makes. I didn't really do a careful comparison but it seems like if the new protocol stays the same as his recent post that its a bit more expensive than the present protocol. Maths not a big favorite of mine so just figured I would wait and see what Rich finally settles on before I put the old grey cells through the trauma of calculating it all.
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I switched my vitamins and minerals to individual pills a year ago, to eliminate folic acid. I've experimented a lot with the B12, most recently changing from 2,000 mcg perque hb12 to 2,000mcg Enzymatic Therapy b12 Infusion, mb12. In 2 days I needed more potassium (very stiff neck and shoulder), which implies that methylation kicked in.

    I get metafolin in my B complex. I haven't switched out the lecithin yet.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I recently tried hydroxycobalamin and couldn't tolerate it. It was making me feel wired off and on, then after a few days, stressed out all the time, so i discontinued.

    I'm doing fine with the methylcobalmin and adenosylcobalamin in the Thorne multi. Even though that oral form is not supposed to be as absorbable, I'm getting significant relief from my MCS on just 2 capsules.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been experiencing a wired feeling too and I've mostly been taking hydroxycobalamin (1000-2000mcg/day). I chose this because in Rich's most recent protocol he called it a “gentler” approach to lifting the partial methylation cycle block so I wasn't sure if it was causing problems for me or not.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ation-protocol-august-25-2012-revision.19050/
  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Lotus. I found out it was the methylfolate in the multi helping with the MCS. I doubt if the B12 in the multi is doing much of anything at all. It's only supposed to absorb about 2% by the stomach route. I've tried liquid sublingual in both the hydroxycobalamin and methylcobalamin forms. Both make me wired.

    However, I finally was able to tolerate methylcobalamin, but only 0.5mcg! That's right - 1/2 of one mcg.

    I believe this is due to the CBS mutation I have. Any methyl groups go down the CBS drain and cause excitotoxicity. Yasko's answer is to hold off on B12 for now, and treat the CBS problem by lowering levels of sulfur and ammonia. Once that occurs, then methyl donors should be a lot better tolerated.

    Yasko says it will take several months to resolve CBS and so far this has been the case. My urine sulfate has gone from 1200 to 800, but now it's been stuck there for a long time. I need to get to 400 or less.

    Rich's protocol doesn't really deal with CBS head on. His solution is to reduce the methyl donors to extremely small amounts and try to work up from there. Once the other parts of the cycle get resolved, then the CBS drain will resolve itself.

    So I'm doing a little of both - reducing sulfur and ammonia (the head on approach), and also taking the extremely small amount of methylcobalamin. I assume I will also know when CBS is resolved when I'm able to greatly increase methylcobalamin.
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    One other point - I finally resolved my dilemma on whether to take the Thorne multi or the Yasko multi. I'm taking both!

    They each have their good points. The methylfolate in the Thorne helps with MCS, plus there are more nutrients in higher amounts than Yasko's (General Neurological Health Formula). Yasko's multi has TMG to stimulate the "backdoor/shortcut" pathway. It's helping me with a bit of energy.

    Sooo.....I'm taking two Thorne's and working my way up to two Yasko's per day.
    RosieBee likes this.
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Did you mean 0.5 mg or 500 mcg? How can you get 0,5 mcg? Are you doing elaborate dilution? You get far more than 0.5 mcg in your diet. Far more even though it is oral.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I have had some issues on hydroxy B12 when I have tried it a few times too.

    Maybe you could do an experiment with some mb12 and see what happens? It might not alleviate anything but sometimes we have to try something to get out of a bad state, right? 1000 mcg of mb12 in a sublingual should be fine to try at least in that it should not hurt you.

    Best of Luck!
    Lotus97 likes this.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks. I tried methylcobalamin first and that made me wired too. I think partially because it's supposed to mobilize mercury, but it could have been overmethylating too. It's sort of a moot point what's causing the symptoms because either way they're not good.

    I forgot to mention that I was also getting 500-1000mcg of Dibencozide/Adenosylcobalamin from a Source Naturals B Complex sublingual which also has active B6 and B2. On top of those, there was also a period for about 5 days where I was taking 800mcg of folinic acid. When I stopped the folinic I also cut back on the B12, but I think it was too little too late. I decided I'm just going to stop B12 for now until things settle down, then I'm going to go very slowly because from my experience and what I've read is that the dosages it builds up over time. I seemed to be tolerating the dosages fine in the beginning plus I've read of people taking higher doses than me, although now that I think about it Rich does say in his most recent protocol not to go over 2000 mcg with B12.

    I'm really not following anyone's protocol exactly. I'm just using it for guidelines on how to take active B12 and folate. I take all my minerals separately and same thing with Vitamin E so I don't need a multiple. In regards to mitochondrial support I'm taking phosphatidyl serine, Krill oil which contain phospholipids, Coenzyme Q10, L-Carnitine, and possibly Alpha Lipoic Acid if I can tolerate it. I'm really sensitive to all my supplements now. I used to be able to take 400 mg Coenzyme Q10 and 1200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid without any problem. I also tolerated Jarrow's 1000 mcg methylcobalamin just fine. Right now I'm just taking a regular B-complex because there was a period in between methylation attempts where I was doing that and I seemed feel ok then. My body needs rest more than anything right now and it's difficult to stay in bed when I'm wired all the time. For myself I don't see methylation as a cure for everything, but rather a piece of the puzzle.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I forgot mention I'm also taking a lot of amino acids which is part of Rich's most recent protocol. I'll try to post all my supplements relevant to his protocol in that thread as soon as I compile a list.

    I read this about absorption of B12 taken orally which suggests that low oral doses might effective if that's all a person needs although that would depend on what the absorption rate is at doses in between 1-1000mcg.
    I was thinking of making a liquid solution with the hydroxocobalamin because even 1/4 a tablet still has 500 mcg. With the B-complex sublingual 1/4 of a tablet only has 125 mcg of ad b12 so that might be doable as a sublingual. The other option I have is a Thorne B complex I bought that has 50 mcg of each adb12 and mb12. The only problem is that it also has 100 mcg of both folinic acid and methylfolate which might cause me problems. I could take 1/3 a capsule at a time, but then the B12 dosages might be too low. I should point out that Thorne makes 5 different B complexes so if one doesn't like the dosages I mentioned with mine there are other options.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    TMG (trimethylglycine) is very cheap. I don't see a problem in buying that separately. As for Niacin it really depends on whether you're prone to under or overmethylation, but more importantly the ratio of B12/Folate to Niacin. Even if you're taking a lot of B12 and methylfolate 500 mg of Niacinamide might not be enough to quench the methylation (this is from someone much more knowledgeable about methylation than me). As I said in my above post, I prefer to take things separately because it's usually cheaper and I have more control if I want to adjust the dose. Thorne actually has a lot of multis and they're all worth checking out. Either that or a multimineral supplement + Vitamin E + B-Complex.
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    While agree that the amounts may very in their effectiveness, enough niacin or niacinamide will quench things if you over-methylate. I have found that 250 mg of niacinamide is maybe about as effective as 150 mg of niacin for me. 350-400 mg of niacin on an empty stomach knocks me out even before the flush arrives (in addition to my usual sleep stack). I use it only in emergencies when I am tinkering and accidentally over-methylate. Saved me two nights in a row over the Christmas holidays just recently when I *ahem* over-experimented on myself.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Literally 0.5 mcg (micrograms). I forgot to add, that's 3-4 times a day. I diluted it way down, so one drop is 0.5 mcg.
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Excellent point. Of course we all need some niacin in our diet, but we need methyl groups too. I feel AWFUL when I take supplemental niacin or niacinamide, so I either need to increase my methyl sups to accomodate niacin, or just avoid it for now.
  20. Symptomatic

    Symptomatic Senior Member

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    Caledonia,

    A few questions for you...I am MTHFR C677T +/- (-/- on the other two MTHFR), and also CBS C699T +/- (and -/- on both other CBS), also have many more +/- on other SNP too (no +/+ anywhere). Just got my results a few weeks ago, and haven't really dug into everything enough to know what's what.

    My doctor was talking about methylcobalamin injections, but I'm thinking that's not a good step at this point. Am planning to get the HDRI functional testing done, to give me a baseline and some direction.

    I also think working on the CBS issue first is prudent. Are you testing sulfate with the test strips? Do you also test sulfite, or just sulfate?

    Thanks in advance!

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