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The Chronic Fatigue Initiative and Interview with Mady Hornig
In a follow-up article to the recent IACFS/ME conference presentation in San Francisco, and after speaking at length with Dr. Mady Hornig, 'searcher' delves deeper into the impressive work being completed by the Chronic Fatigue Initiative, and focuses in on those cytokine results ...
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Informative video on the gut by De Meirleir

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by cigana, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    All about the gut, LPS, gram-negative bacteria, lactic acid, prions, serotonin, Th2 and Th14 overbalance, opportunistic infections, leaky gut, H2S and its effect on mitochondria, alcohol intolerance, antibiotic treatments, probiotics, NO, etc...



    It was recorded in Australia, 17 April 2010. Enjoy!
    vitamink, Enid, camas and 3 others like this.
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi,

    This is a bit "old" but most of it is still relevant. A boat-load of fascinating information. Well worth the time to watch it. I should have taken notes cause I have already forgotten half of what he said!

    I am his patient but had not heard a lot of this.

    Sushi
    justy likes this.
  3. cansado

    cansado

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    Thanks for this informative video!
  4. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    Yes, it's a very interesting video. The last 5-10 minutes made me want to cut out all fructose, wheat, casein, and... and... dang, whatever the fourth thing was. :rolleyes:

    I'm still trying to sort out what I think about his emphasis on the gut with regards to my particular situation. I have never had gut issues. In fact, I seem to have a very sturdy gut. Does that mean that most of his theories don't apply to me?
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I don't have gut symptoms but my gut tests (last one was the metagenomics) are very abnormal and my non-gut symptoms improve when I treat the gut.

    Sushi
    merylg and Clodomir like this.
  6. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    Thanks! I've been wondering about that for a long time now. That makes me all that more eager to look into gut problems. In what ways have you treated the gut. I know you've probably told us, but you know how the memory is. Maybe you can point me to a thread where you've discussed this...?
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi,

    I've commented on it but it is all over the place--a bunch of threads.

    First, targeted ABX that just work in the intestines--usually the first 8 days of each of 3 months followed by probiotics--in my case VSL-3 to match the gut tests. Then I took Creon for several months (prescription pancreatic enzymes), diet to match food insensitivities test, and GcMAF is likely to affect the gut too.

    Different supplements, some of them doubtless impact the gut, but not sure what is doing what.

    On the first (recent) gut test, I had a massive overgrowth of prevotella. On the second (a year later) the prevotella was gone but this more sophisticated test (metagenomics) showed a bunch of other lower level infections and a very high ratio of gram + to gram- bacteria.

    I am 2/3rds of the way through another round of gut treatment.

    That's about all I remember right now.

    Sushi
    merylg likes this.
  8. SOC

    SOC Back to work (easy, part-time work)

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    Sushi: Tx. A lot of that is similar to what KDM talked about in the video (no surprise).

    I wonder why none of the major US docs have bought into KDM's gut treatment. Or have they? Anybody know?
  9. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Thanks for sharing this video cigana. There is so much information in it I am going to have to listen again. I learned something about CoQ10 that helps me understand why I don't seem to tolerate it at the moment. He briefly mentioned something that seemed to relate to XMRV & potential massive litigation...I wonder if he still holds that view???
    All the gut flora stuff is fascinating! :alien:
  10. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Thanks Cig - ive been posting on the blog you put up about this video - so glad to see its a forum post where more will see it and we can discuss his ideas.

    It was so brilliant to see so much of the subjects i have learnt about in the past two years - both on these boards and through Dr Myhill and others so eloquently explained - and it makes so much sense - tying up so many things together.

    Meryl - i also had a period of time where i couldnt tolerate coq10 at all - which Dr Myhill thought was unusual - maybe its not as unusual as was thought then. What reaction do you have to it?

    One thing that didnt make sense to me was his scoring system. His moderate category seem to me to be mild - so not quite like me - and his severe category were VERY severe. I'm sure he must see a lot of patients who are in between - but he didnt discuss them at all. I DID like his pre M.E category - those who are normal apart from the beginnings of some issues like IBS, who may tip over into an M.E state at a later date.

    I did pay attention, but it was a lot to take in - does he have a theory for what causes these gut imblances in the first place?

    The way the gut impacts on the immune system and on the cellular energy system was fascinating - lots of dots being joined up.

    Would love to go and see him. Any idea of costs anyone?
    All the best, Justy.
    merylg likes this.
  11. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Interesting presentation. I didn't take it all in (had it on in the background) but it seemed reminiscent in some of the themes in this presentation:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/lipkin-autism-gut-study-presentation.17883/

    This all seems to have the potential to join up quite nicely with everything else known about ME/CFS in terms of autoimmunity, and looks like gut bacteria could underlie all the other processes. In the autism study, they seem to have found a very specific previously little-known species of gut bacteria which could be the root cause of autoimmune issues as the toxic consequences leak through an impaired gut barrier and provoke immune response with consequences that impair mitochondrial function. If that group follows a similar methodology for ME/CFS in Lipkin's pathogen study, and finds characteristic bacterial infections with consequences that join up with the autoimmune markers that the Australians are uncovering (this is what I'm hoping for!) then that would be close to a full explanation of the pathophysiology together with a possible or even probable underlying cause (the gut bacteria infection). Tantalising prospect...but note that Lipkin's pathogen study probably won't be reporting any results before about this time next year according to what Dr Peterson said at IiME.
    merylg and justy like this.
  12. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Justy,
    His consultation fees are very good (about 40 Euros), but his tests cost a lot (around £2000!)...
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Costs vary a lot from patient to patient. From my experience, that is a bit on the high end. But I brought a lot of tests with me.

    Best,
    Sushi
  14. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Justy,

    I believe he's implying the gut dysfunction stems from food sensitivities. He says 97% of his patients are sensitive to one of the big four (wheat, casein, lactose, corn) and he implies these were present before the development of ME. The other 3% are sensitive to things like aspartame. The idea being ongoing gut inflammation leads to imbalances in flora.

    I also found his pre-ME observation interesting, as I've a sister showing many of the same symptoms I had before developing PEM. One thing she has that I never did is an inability to lose weight, even on a 1200 calorie/day diet. She went in for metabolic testing and it turns out she has a very low VO2 max. This is exactly what KDM is seeing in siblings of his ME patients. Also interesting is Shoemaker's explanation of this weight loss problem in his patients.

    As much as I like KDM's work I still think there's something missing from the theory. I wonder if his findings of low VO2 max in patients and siblings, and probably a greater number of the regular public, wouldn't correspond with what Cheney was calling oxygen toxicity, found in his patients and a third of the population. And if maybe this doesn't correspond to the 24% of the population Shoemaker believes to have a genetic problem detoxifying biotoxins. Perhaps I'm being too liberal with these ideas but I can't help but wonder. Cheney seems open to Shoemakers ideas, stating a third of his patients have Lyme and a third have mold illness. Shoemaker and those benefiting from mold/biotoxin avoidance claim that food sensitivities follow the inflamed state resulting from toxic exposures; this could come back around and explain why KDM is finding food sensitivities and that this leads to ME.

    Just some musings.
    justy and merylg like this.
  15. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Graeme,

    That video is about 2 years old. I think KDM would agree with you that there was things missing. I believe his research has gone further now, but still a lot of these ideas still stand.

    Sushi
    Enid likes this.
  16. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    General intolerance symptoms that build up over about 3 days eg headache that builds to a migraine, breathing difficulty, and NO expected increase in energy.
    I have tried Ubidecarenone & Ubiquinol. Maybe I will try again later.
  17. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    I hear he has moved on quite a bit (joining the dots up so to speak). Each course of treatment is tailored for pathogens found present individually together with lack of certain Vits etc. and GI issues. A Norwegian friend has been with for a while now and reports lower viral etc loads and health improvement all round.
  18. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Interesting musings all round. For me most of the theories seem to have missing sections - its still looks like a chicken and egg situation for me, and still very complex. Of course a retrovirus of some sort would be neat and tidy - but it could be an environmental disease backed up by genes, leading to general inflammation and eventually (for some) some kind of autoimmunity (very vague musings)
    I'm not sure how this ties in with outbreaks or transmission issues. Anecdotally in my family both my older children have bowel and fatigue problems from childhood. My eldest daughter had a 2 year period of being bedbound with an illness that looked more like crohns with immune problem. Now my youngest daughter has stomach issues at 9 but not fatigue. This makes sense to me as they have my genes - the boys seem healthier than the girls (or at least sturdier) But now we have come to the awful realisation that my husband is becoming ill - mainly with gut problems - ongoing for past 3 years and getting worse. No PEM as yet but has easier fatigue and insomina.
    I do hope that there are some answers soon - the more i read the more i believe that it is coming soon.
    All the best, Justy.

    Any links to newer talks by KDM?

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