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Inflammation, sores at corner of mouth and other symtpms with increased Bs

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. chilove

    chilove

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    Heya Fredd,

    I just doubled my Mb12 and folate to 4 jarrow mb12s and 6 solgar folates per day and I got increased inflammation all over, increased mucus production, slight tingling and irritation at the corners of mouth that I remember come before the actual full blow sores I used to occasionally get and the most troubling part increased inflammation in the eyes (iritis) which I have to take prednisone drops for because my opthamologist is concerned about the scar tissue that I already have and more building up. I need to decrease the inflammation in my body ASAP.

    Can you help me figure out how to decrease the symptoms? I'm already taking btwn 1000-1500 extra potassium per day... I'd be willing to try upping it but it causes stomach issues at higher dosages than that.

    I do eat a fairly high folate diet and can't change that at this time since my body is only letting me eat raw fruits and veggies or else I get even worse inflammation.

    Do I need some chelating agents if this is detox?

    Thanks so much!

    Audrey
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey,

    One of the things that is not clear about mb12, becasue the research has been done mostly on Hycbl, is that at first inflammation increases before it gets the NO under control. We don't know whether that occurs with mb12 or even adb12 as well. In any case that is considered normal.

    Something that is just becoming a hypothesis, adding to the paradoxical and/or induced folate deficiency hypothesis is that with enough mb12, which you clearly have now, appears able start so much cell formation in process, that the need for methylfolate outruns the amount of folate that got it started. There has been scattered results pointing at this with myself and others and it is starting to add up. Now this is all EXPERIMENTAL. I want to be very clear on that. It appears that by taking the methylfolate with the meal in sufficient quantity and maybe some before the meal as well, that enough folate can be absorbed into the body to get past the blocking effect, for those in whom such effect is present and that these indicator symptoms will subside. I know what you mean about the tingling of the cheilitis before the actual full blown burning sores. I get it too. It is what you can watch and use to head off the full blown attack.

    I am currently taking 2400mcg Metafolin on wakeup. 3200mcg Metafolin with brunch. 2400mcg Metafolin in late afternoon, 3200mcg Metafolin with dinner and 2400mcg at bedtime. So far I have held the cheilitis at bay and it is healing. It goes deeper than I thought and is taking longer to heal through and through and is now more healed than any other time except once or twice. BUT I can feel it almost instantly when it turns around to get worse. So my total is 13,600mcg daily, very close to the 15mg Deplin. It would be even more without the timing which appears critical.

    The increase in mucous is excellent and is a healing sign. Mucous changes when the tissues are damaged leading to stomach and intenstin damage, clogging in sinuses and all sorts of things. It gets sort of dry and sticky which is terrible as it should be slick as snot. The mucous tissues are very often the first ones healed.

    Good luck.
     
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey;
    I too had some increased inflammation when I recently added more methylfolate. I've gotten canker sores regularly since childhood. Although the Mb12 is healing my nerves, some of my tissue inflammation is still apparent. Now that I've increased MFolate, my cankers are gone. I'm waiting to see if this is a sure thing before reporting on a folate thread here. During my last outbreak, I increased the folate and had an increase in inflammation around the sores, along with swelling. I worried that I was sensitive to an additive in the tablet. But it was not so. I then increased the MFolate and the tissue began to heal. My guess is that sometimes temporary increases in inflammation when beginning this protocol may indicate that healing has begun. I'm slowly adding folate to find a maintenance dosage. I'm at 2.4 mg. today, and will probably add some more to see if IBS improves. For me, time is an important component.
    I wonder if you have a good source of amino acids. I think maybe with this healing process, we may also need more amino acids to rebuild tissues.
     
  4. chilove

    chilove

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    Hi Fredd,

    YOu've probably covered this before.. but why not just get a prescription for Deplin and take two of those per day? I'm condsidering that once I build up to those dosage levels. I'm going to push it as fast as I can because I am ready to HEAL! LOL. :)

    Thanks so much!

    Audrey
     
  5. chilove

    chilove

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    Thanks Crux, I AM lacking in amino acids because my body can't process protein well at all.. I've had the problem for years..its part of my extreme food sensitivites... even tiny amounts of concentrated protein sources (even plant based proteins) cause a lot of inflammation and pain.

    How much folate are you on currently? And how much mb12?

    THanks so much!
     
  6. chilove

    chilove

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    Fredd... one more thing.. you say: "The increase in mucous is excellent and is a healing sign. Mucous changes when the tissues are damaged leading to stomach and intenstin damage, clogging in sinuses and all sorts of things. It gets sort of dry and sticky which is terrible as it should be slick as snot. The mucous tissues are very often the first ones healed."

    How long should this last? I'm glad you think that the increased mucous is excellent but its not very pleasant or comfortable..coughing, sneezing, runny nose, eye gunk... gross. :)

    Thanks so much for all your help! You are amazing!

    Thanks!

    Audrey
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey,

    Coughing, sneezing and eye gunk sounds a lot more like increased reaction from paradoxical folate deficiency. However, if it is relatively liguid and slippery that is good. If it makes clumps that stand up with form and is sticky like jelly that is not good. This type of increase appears to be low folate, despite your dose.
     
  8. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    True true, its good to clear out junk. One of the bowen clients i've seen who smoked basically coughed up a crapload of mucus over the next week as her respiratory system was released to process better.

    I've developed cold sores since too, its a pain in the butt! Lysine and bee pollen arent working as effectively as usual.
     
  9. chilove

    chilove

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    It does seem to be the yucky kind of mucus and I'm not feeling all that great in general. I'm feeling very "allergic" and inflammed.

    Do you think I need to just increase my folate or might there be another issue?

    Am I taking too much Mb12? (4000mcg per day now)

    Thanks!

    Audrey
     
  10. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey ;
    I'm currently taking 10mg. Mb12, and 2-2.4 mg. Mfolate daily. I've been increasing the folate slowly because I do get low potassium symptoms from it. ( sleep delay, anxiety, slowing of bowels). But I'm curious to find a necessary amount, I'm just doing this slowly even if it means slowed healing. I'm not sure where I'll end up with folate amounts, (I'm influenced by observing the amounts other people are taking.) Though the start-up effects are strong, I'm very gratified by the improvements. I've also noticed that my mucous is less viscous, a good thing.
     
  11. chilove

    chilove

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    Hi Crux,

    Thanks for sharing..it is helpful to hear others' experience. My mucus is actually more viscous and more pronounced.. not good I'm thinking.. hopefully Fredd can help me figure it out.. Maybe it's just detox or maybe I need more folate.. I'm not sure how to tell..

    What start up effects are you feeling? In addition to the above mentioned symptoms I'm also having some insomnia and loss of appetite and some tingling nerves.
     
  12. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey ;
    Yes Freddd is most expert with Folate.
    I'll just discuss my own experience with these symptoms. My loss of appetite was due to low stomach acid ( mostly from low cortisol), and low B12. Infections may also cause low appetite. My tingling of nerves was from low B12,when the nerves began to heal, some tingling increased temporarily. If it stops, but then returns,it may mean that more B12 is needed. Although insomnia, like fatigue, has so many causes, for me lately it has been really helped with potassium. I wonder if you are kicking off an infection. I don't know what you're dietary philosophy is, but I find that gelatin broth is helping me very much with a number of ailments. I make it from scratch, and I add extra gelatin. The amino acids, glycine and proline help with many digestive problems. I'm still not sure why, but I've read that chicken soup has antihistamine properties.
     
  13. chilove

    chilove

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    Hi Cruz,

    I can't metabolize animal protein or any other concentrated protein source unfortunately. That is part of my problem. I may look into the low stomach acid theory...

    Thanks!
     
  14. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Ok, we heard Freddd's theory - here's mine. When you take methyls and methylation substances contain them - you ultimately RAISE homocystsien (a neurotoxin), at least temporarily. All that mB12 and mfolate do is reCYCLE homocysteine. If your homocysteine is high, they will make it higher at first (or maybe ALWAYS for you depending on how much P5P you are taking and how much kidney capacity you have -- these are the ONLY WAYs to get rid of the neurotoxin homocysteine -- look at the biochemistry!). If you take more methyl than you can excrete (and you need P5P in TWO enzymes on the ONLY excretion path or if you are taking tylenol (which decreases kidney function) or if you have for some other reason decreased kidney function, you WILL have high homocysteine, a neurotoxin.

    I would make sure I drained it away with P5P before taking high doses of methylation substances myself. I think this is very likely one cause of startup symptoms. I never had startup symptoms when I went from B100 (which had 100mg B6) to active B's + 50mg P5p + 800 mcg mfolate + 5mg mB12 as my homocysteine was never higher than 12 due to the B6 and I started right away with the extra P5P.

    Later I was taking so many supplements that I kept getting nauseated so I stopped everything that started up with only the Thorne Basic B 2x/day (no extra P5P, no prior 100mg B6). That time I experienced startup symptoms. I think had I tested I would have found my homocysteine went through the roof (people with my genes can get their homocysteine extremely high) and adding methyls to THAT situation can send it higher. I started taking the 50mg P5P and potassium since I now had startup symptoms, first time ever, and they went away over some days). Depending on how high the homocysteine and the dose of P5P and the functioning of one's kidney's it could take quite awhile to drain away potentially.

    Anyway, I would consider this. I take NO B6 anymore ever - not a spec, but I believe I can take as much P5P as I want. I have tried 50-200mg but it seems 50mg is good enough for me. If I take more it does not lower my homocysteine lower than it should be. What works for me may not work for you. There is a max 100mg B6 you can take before it can cause nerve damage. As far as I have read there is no such threshold for P5P but I've never seen proof. It is kidney protective against glycation (caused by blood sugar) so I am interested in it since I have the diabetes genes and have been diabetic twice.

    I would never ignore any negative symptom and regard it as 'startup'. It could be that what works for others does not work for you. If you go low potassium (or too high) it can kill you very quickly. High homocysteine can cause stroke or heart attack. Inflammation is caused by inflammatory cytokines which themselves can trigger cardiac incidents. I just think you should listen to your body first.

    Rydra
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,

    When you take methyls and methylation substances contain them - you ultimately RAISE homocystsien (a neurotoxin), at least temporarily

    Methylb12, methylfolate and p5p remove homocysteine promptly. They do not raise HCY. Whatever you have least of is the most limting factor for you.
     
  16. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Fredd, I did not provide references - you rarely do yourself, but you neglected my mention above - and this is very important - that kidney function is required to eliminate HCY. These things have to be mentioned because not everyone here has good kidneys nor is aware that some drugs and even OTC substances like tylenol can reduce kidney function. I include this study because it's easy but there are more interesting things I could cite if I took the time: http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/12/10/2181.short

    I actually do know that TMG lowers homocysteine promptly, but I still look at the biochemistry and what I see with mB12+mfolate and/or TMG is a juggler juggling more efficiently...I dont see less being juggled and I still think if a test was designed correctly it would show that juggler can be a problem with too many methyls winging around and no quick way to get rid of them safely. It's only logical to me. I cant prove it. (Well I can prove low kidney function causes raised HCY anyway).

    Rydra
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,

    If you look at the information for Metanx which is a prescription form of "medical food" for the purpose of lowering homocystyein and fixing neuropathy. That has it in great detail. There are lots of other such references.

    Dr Bens Comments

    http://mthfr.net/comparison-of-homocysteine-support-products/2011/09/13/
    All homocysteine support prescription drugs are loaded with artificial ingredients such as coloring, preservatives, flow agents, caking agents and others.
    The prescription drugs for homocysteine support which do not use the active form of folate (L-methylfolate which is Metafolin) or 5-MTHF, are vastly inferior and should not be used in my opinion. Most people with elevated homocysteine likely have the MTHFR mutation in some fashion. That said, it is imperative that these individuals only take active forms of folate (Metafolin form) otherwise the homocysteine levels will not drop effectively and the individual will have elevated levels of folic acid. Having elevated levels of folic acid is not good and obviously having elevated levels of homocysteine is not good at all.
     

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