Professor & patients' paper on the solvable biological challenge of ME/CFS: reader-friendly version
Simon McGrath provides a patient-friendly version of a peer-reviewed paper which highlights some of the most promising biomedical research on ME/CFS ...
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Index markers of chronic fatigue syndrome with dysfunction of TCA and urea cycles

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Kyla, Oct 11, 2016.

  1. Kyla

    Kyla ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ

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    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep34990

     
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  2. Kyla

    Kyla ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ

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    Unfortunately uses Fukuda criteria, but it will be interesting to see how this matches up with Navieux , Hansen, other metabolomics research
     
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  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Every group that has looked at energy production with a metabolomics approach has found problems. Is this correct or am I being misled by false hope?
     
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  4. daisybell

    daisybell Senior Member

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    Strongly significant results too!
     
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  5. Matthew Jones

    Matthew Jones Senior Member

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    How many people were in the study? A bit too foggy to find it myself. Thanks for posting.
     
  6. Kyla

    Kyla ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ

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    upload_2016-10-11_14-34-46.png
     
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  7. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    Do we have any experts who can interpret this ?
     
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  8. M Paine

    M Paine Senior Member

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    What an exciting thing to wake up to. A Nature CFS paper! :)

    Look forward to reading over this in detail. Looks very interesting at first skim.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
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  9. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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    Wow, another metabolomic study showing decreased ATP production, ie energy production. Looks promising.

    Interesting that they suggest personalized diet or supplements might help.

    And suggestions of biomarkers.

    My biochemistry knowledge is not sufficient to tell whether it directly confirms Naviaux findings. Any experts here?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
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  10. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    Wow the metabolic papers are pouring in in a significant fashion! Loving it!
     
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  11. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    It would be interesting to do the above with a set of patients meeting Oxford criteria, and simply depressed people.
    To actually nail down in really simple words that yes CFS/ME is different from depression and anxiety disorders.
    Indeed - this is an ideal 'big data' type project - once you have a list of proteins in patients serum, it should be trivial to take this data, and compare it against other datasets got for different conditions.
     
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  12. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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  13. J.G

    J.G

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    Admittedly a total layman in this area, but this observation by the authors caught my eye (from the paper):
    So the authors identify two aspects to what appears to be underperforming cellular respiration: Krebs Cycle intermediates are abnormal (1), ATP production is impaired (2). Of course these are two sides of the same coin; the former problem leads to the latter, and since ATP is required to make ATP, feeds back on it. However, analytically separating these opens the door to the idea that organic acid abnormalities are a response to a central ATP production obstacle - and that we should look into it.

    More broadly, both observations tie in nicely with Armstrong et al's earlier suggestion that ME/CFS energy metabolism leans heavily on glycolysis alone, i.e. the first step in cellular respiration, for ATP production. It's congruent with Shungu's elevated lactate findings. It also fits with Jamie's hypothesis on lipid rafts cutting short mitochondrial function (if I remember, and understood, it correctly).

    If further studies confirm aberrant ME/CFS energy metabolism (which seems increasingly likely), I'm excited to find out how the dots will eventually connect to blood volume/circulation problems and potential autoimmunity. That is, if they connect, and are not subsets.

    I'm sure there's lots more to this paper that's striking. I eagerly await the comments of someone with expertise. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
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  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    There's already been hundreds of papers showing that ME/CFS is different from mood disorders. We certainly don't need more money wasted on such studies merely because some people aren't willing to read the existing ones.
     
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  15. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    Not quite.
    There was a recent study n=20, looking at some immune cell I've forgotten that found exactly nothing.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27713703
    Hmm - this is a gene expression study, not proteomics. I would be really interested to know what the proteome looked like in these cells at this time.
    Perhaps they picked a cell population that is not particularly affected by PEM.

    Or perhaps their patient population was poorly chosen.
    The patients did report PEM.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
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  16. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I believe they used the same cell types (PBMCs) as Light et al., which that study failed to reproduce.
     
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  17. Navid

    Navid Senior Member

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    Does this paper allow any of you brainy science ppl to draw any conclusions as to what supplements may be useful in overcoming the deficiencies found in the study. I know grasping at straws again, but that's where life has lead me these days. Thanks to anyone who might have some ideas.

    :vomit:
     
  18. FMMM1

    FMMM1

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    Not a brainy science person but listen in to Armstrong's webinar (is that the word) it's available now, he deals with issue of supplements late on in the talk. First things first, you need to know that you have the biochemical abnormality (crebbs cycle - glycolysis - whatever it's called).
    Interestingly Armstrong used NMR for his recent work I.e a different technique from the other studies which used Mass Spectrometry. He reckons that his work, Naviau's recent paper, mitochondria proteomics paper from folks in Pisa and this paper are all on the same page. This may be complex but at least there is agreement re problem. Interestingly Armstrong looks at links to sepsis.
    Re focus on patient selection criteria; we seem to be looking at a diagnostic blood test and leaving the collection of symptoms behind - good in my view.
    We need to get to try to get these blood based diagnostic tests delivered.
     

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