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Increasing supplement dosage on Freddd's protocol

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Mr. Cat, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Hello,

    I have been on B12 for almost 4 years, and it has saved my life, thanks Freddd and everyone who has shared their experiences! When I first tried Metafolin and adB12 with the protocol 4 years ago, they didn't seem to do anything for me, so I went off of them after a couple of months, staying on mB12 and other supplements, including LCF and SAM-e.

    When some kind soul put out the updated compilation of Freddd's protocol, I decided to have a go at it again, switching my mB12 from AOR to Country Life (an improvement), and adding in Metafolin (helpful this time), and adB12 (noticeable the first few days, then not). I am now at daily dosages of 15mg mB12, 8.5mg adB12, and 9.6mg Metafolin. I have been gradually increasing the Metafolin from when I started 2 weeks ago as I had an initial strong positive reaction to that, but left the mB12 and adB12 at their original dosages.

    I have experienced no terrible side effects to anything, and positive effects were most pronounced in the beginning. (The first 3 days - wow, amazing!) When I feel what may be hypokalemia, potassium seems to calm it down, and though I have had some tired, minor-crash periods (minor brain fog and nervous system/body tiredness are the most pronounced symptoms), there have been no major crashes like what people have described on here due to paradoxical folate deficiency or methyl-trap.

    My question is about increasing dosages. I've upped the folate pretty rapidly so far, with no negative effects, and wonder how I would know when I have increased it to an optimal dose. I'm not getting much new from the adB12 anymore, and less from the B12, so I guess I could increase those more too, though I tried a mega-dose of 50mg mB12 several years ago, and it didn't do much more than 15mg. I think I have read on other threads that it is wise to raise levels until symptoms decrease/level out, but I'm not experiencing major paradoxical/methyl-trap symptoms, so I'm not sure if that is a good gauge. Raise them until an increase no longer produces an improvement? I'm going to double the adB12 today so it is at a 1:1 ratio with mB12, but if I don't notice anything, I may drop it back down. I'd like to get the mB12/adB12/folate ratio down, and then I will tinker with raising LCF.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Cat,

    It sounds like you are doing very well indeed. I would say that things are proceeding well and "normally". It is normal to reach an unnoticeable equilibrium with each MeCbl, AdoCbl, folate and LCF. This is good. TO me it means that your mitochondria in your body at least are fully charged with AdoCbl. More won't normally make a difference. I found that a 50mg (AdoCbl, MeCbl separately) dose penetrated the brain and made a noticeable difference. For me my optimum way to take AdoCbl was to take 50mg once a week. It doesn't turn over very fast. MeCbl with an all day 30mg ENZY trial gets the serum level up. If more will make a difference this would let you know. It lets you have the effect of an 10mg more or less injection and trials getting more into the CSF. It might do nothing or it might subtly let you know your brain wants injections.

    Keeping what is working going, now is the time to trial the other possibly critical cofactors. Did you have a strong reaction to LCF? If not have you trialed ALCAR? That's an answer you need for customizing. Then a trial of SAM-e could let you know. While keeping SAM-e going, try TMG, Biotin, Alpha Lipoic Acid, D-ribose, always adding because it is combinations. Keep all of them going. Try more zinc up to maybe 50-75m daily total. Always add one thing at a time for a few days before adding the next. The object is to keep going what you have and maybe get more going. So in doing these thing you will find out if your CNS needs more, if some support on methylation and/or ATP helps. I found weekly cycles, daily cycles of pain or other symptoms and so on that were because of something I was doing and so was able to customize.

    Be patient. Healing takes months and years. After 50 or 100 symptoms decrease some don't or get worse. This allows focusing on what will work for them while keeping your basic healing going.

    It may take several start and stop trials on some of these more subtle supplements to tell if they are doing anything. The deadlock quartet though remains needed. Folate only needs to go as high as is needed to get rid of folate deficiency symptoms and keep healing going along. There is no extra benefit from taking more than your body can use. For me edema disappears when I hit that point and stay there.

    I kept daily track for years. It let me find all sorts of things. After a while it will become obvious what is and isn't being affected. Then one can do targeted trials. Good luck and Good Health.
    aturtles and Mr. Cat like this.
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @Freddd what about B6? I don't see it mentioned very often in your protocol but it's needed by the transsulfuration pathway and the creation of glutathione. I suppose this question may have already been asked, so I apologize if it's the 100th time that you get asked this :)
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPositive,

    B6 is essential. It is in b-complex and many take additional in one form or another. I haven't found any smoking gun on it for a "too much" effect such as found with B1, B2 and B3. It is often the third "most limiting factor" for high MCV, along with MeCbl and l-methylfolate. I have no noticeable responses concerning it over the range I have trialed it. Whatever it's effects may be they appear more subtle than B1, B2 and B3 for many of us. What jumps out as a "to much" response for those sensitive to it?
  5. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd,

    I did take mega (50mg) doses of mb12 and adB12 4 years ago, and didn't notice anything different from 15mg, though I guess doing them again would be quick and easy ways to test if more of these would be helpful this time around. Once I figure out adB12/mB12/folate, I will experiment with raising LCF, and then maybe the minor things, though I have tried several of them before. I do get a sense that the addition of folate is causing some healing this time around, so that's nice.
  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Usually peripheral neuropathy is the first indication of B6 toxicity. Most people can tolerate 100 mg/day, but there was one incidence in the research of a person getting toxic at 100 mg/day.
    Personally, I used 100 mg/day for a few months and still tested deficient (by noting the pattern on the amino acid profile). I switched to the active form, P5P, and the deficiency disappeared. Then I cut the dose in half and all still seems good, though I'm due for testing.
  7. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Can anyone direct me to a simple document which explains how to get started on the Freddd protocol?

    I have read hundreds of pages of posts, pdf docs & websites on the protocol. Very enlightening, but they often lack crucial details, or contradict each other.

    Examples:

    1. Take adb12 once a week; take adb12 four times a day.
    2. Start all supps at once; stagger the supp start-ups over a week or three.
    3. Start m-folate discretely; start m-folate with your "base" of support vitamins at the beginning.

    One post may have the supplements but not the brands. Another will give the brands but not the dosage timing - and so on.

    As a non-scientifically trained beginner of average intelligence (with some brainfog), I don't mind investing a few hundred hours in study - but presently I can't begin the protocol because I don't really know what the protocol is.

    I'm hoping there's a simple doc of a couple of pages somewhere that explains this.

    I know there's lots of individual fine-tuning & safety warnings that won't fit into those two pages. But the basics would be great - i.e. an up to date list of:

    supps (main ones + support)
    starting dosages
    criteria for finding maintenance dosages
    dosing intervals of both, for each supp
    latest approved 5-star brands

    For the record, I want to try the protocol for myself ('low adrenal' symptoms such as brainfog & fatigue; psoriasis) & my relative, who is a worse case, which I'll describe briefly:

    My relative's bodily health is quite good, & she doesn't have CFS. No muscle problems, fibromyalgia, etc. Her symptoms are basically neurological: mentally disorganised, doesn't enjoy physical touch, a bit paranoid (thinks others are against her), frozen or 'numbed out' body language & face sometimes, very unmotivated (therapy, work, future), extreme ADD (the worst case I've seen), secretive, socially backward/shy, goes "a little crazy" on menstruation, feels "more stupid" than 10 years ago, depression comes & goes, not much memory: maybe 20% of 15 years ago (her 90-year-old grandmother has much better memory & attention), anxiety & fear, internet addiction, and (a strange one) two days of fatigue + quite bad alienation/depersonalisation after a few hours' physical work.

    The mood/psychological symptoms have improved maybe 30% after a month of supplements, exercise, probiotics, vege juices, etc. The memory & ADD haven't.

    Thanks to all...
  8. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Information on Freddd's protocol has changed over the years, and is all over the B12/methylation section of PR, so it can be confusing to get started. Look up the user "ahmo," and look in the footer under her posts, where you can find a downloadable guide to the most up-to-date version of Freddd's protocol that she compiled from recent PR postings by Freddd. That's where I got started my second time around. Thanks Ahmo!
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Thanks Mr. Cat. The one revision I haven't made to the guide is Fred's current advice re taking AdB12. Rather than taking it every day, his experiments have found that once a week, on a day without MB12, is better. this seems to enhance the absorption of both the B12's. So current suggestion is 50mg AdB12 once a week, on a day when you don't take MB12. My body seems to find this superior. cheers, ahmo
    sproggle and Mr. Cat like this.
  10. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    The science of methylation never stands still! Thanks for the update. I will try that out.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Regarding the AdoCbl, I replace 1 of 3 doses with then AdoCbl. The serum halflife is fast enough that it becomes majority version of b12 for a while. However, there is a second grouping that needs it every day or they can notice the difference. I know it has evolved every year for the past 11 years. There is more to learn and still finding things that make a difference. Good health.
    Mr. Cat likes this.
  12. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Mr Cat.

    I've read Ahmo's doc, but to my neophyte & slightly brainfogged mind some of it contradicts stuff Freddd has said at one time or another.

    E.g. methylfolate 4 times a day just before the mB12 etc; whereas in at least one post Freddd had methylfolate in with the "base" support supplements that you started a week before the methylating ones.

    I've often read that you start up one methylating supplement, wait a week, then add another. But that too seems different in Ahmo's doc.

    (Then there's the AdoCbl thing, tho Freddd's now clarified that above.)

    Maybe I've been reading outdated posts though.

    There are also parts of the Ahmo doc I just don't understand. For example:

    1 - Titrate AdoCbl/MeCbl combo to approximately 100mcg absorbed where healing can “turn on” with 200-800mcg of l-methylfolate. 200mcg will not be enough and will immediately (3 days) give “detox” symptoms composed of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency. If startup does not occur by the time one gets to 1000mcg combined absorbed cobalamins, titrate LCF

    Finally, I wonder if Freddd, if he's reading, could clarify his sentence, above: "Regarding the AdoCbl, I replace 1 of 3 doses with then AdoCbl."

    A simple explanatory document for beginners would be great, if anyone is able to write one. I'd do it myself, but I don't understand the protocol well enough.

    Thanks & all the best...
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  13. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Oh, and if anyone has any comments on which supplements to lean to, or dosing, based on our symptoms or my SNPs (see below sig), that also would be greatly appreciated.
  14. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Ahmo & Freddd.

    So what would a start-up weekly dose of Adb12 be please? (I assume less than 50mg.)

    "So current suggestion is 50mg AdB12 once a week, on a day when you don't take MB12." Er, don't you take mB12 every day?
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Johnmac Maybe try starting at 10 or 20mg?? I took MB12 daily until the last couple weeks, when Fred posted this new info. Now once/week I omit MB12, take AdB12. I don't experience anything significant w/ that change, neither + nor -.
  16. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Ahmo - duly noted. Will do.

    Hopefully someone will be able to answer my other questions, above.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2014
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Johnmac,

    Things have evolved over time. Specific answers to specific people about specific responses also are variants of answers. Basically Start MeCbl, say 1 tablet of Enzymatic Therapy or maybe Country Life 5mg Methyl B12. This is in addition to a b-complex without folic acid or CyCbl, and low B1, B2 and B3 *those 3 affect need for folate and potassium and cut effectiveness), A, D, e, C, magnesium, zinc, etc. Along with the MeCbl start with 1/4 or a Methylfolate 4 times a day (short half life). If startup occurs, pick out the symptoms of low folate/potassium and correct these induced deficiencies. If startup hasn't occurred, Add AdoCbl. Then if startup occurs, correct the induced deficiencies and get everything balanced, then start adding L-carnitine fumarate.

    People who have extreme responses often start with smaller doses. However, keeping Methylfolate low just prolongs the misery. Keeping potassium low can be dangerous. People have ended up in the ER.

    What I can't give you is exactly how much of what you will need. For everybody, it is a titrate to effectiveness. It's taken me 6 years of trials with Mfolate and other folate trials to come up with my present program for me. This ends up being a very custom program for each person. Potassium often is needed at 1200-3000mg/day. Methylfolate might be fine depending upon the person for anything from 800mcg to 15mg or more. Deplen (brand of Metafolin prescription) had better results at 15 and 30mg than 7.5mg. The only way to know what you need is to adjust and titrate by effectiveness. The folate symptoms can start disappearing in hours to a day. The low potassium symptoms also start going away in hours after an oral dose. I take 700mg with each of 2 meals and 300mg with water a couple of times a day. This works for me. It is all trialing on your part. Some people say start lower and other don't, usually based very strong startup experiences.


    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
  18. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd - that definitely helps. I've noted it down, & will apply when the supps arrive next week.

    IMO the protocol is a bit of a closed shop at the moment: it excludes 99% of sick people because it hasn't been clearly written down in one place, in a well-ordered way, with most of the relevant details present. There are very few of my friends who could struggle though this forum to arrive at an understanding, for instance. I've written for New Scientist & it's taken me a month & a lot of head-scratching. I almost gave up several times.

    This is definitely not a criticism: no-one owes me an explanation (many/most people here are barely holding their own health together), and I've been lucky to get the guidance I have.

    I'd guess that the opaqueness of the protocol to regular people is a product of the stage the science is at: still in the ferment of creation - at least till recently, maybe even now. You can't systematise and write down something until all the science is there, which includes a fair bit of clinical feedback.

    Thanks again, Freddd. I'll post results when they appear.
  19. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks to all especially Fred for all the answers so far. My supps arrive next week, & I'll start the protocol then.

    A few extra questions, for anyone (including Freddd) who wants to chance their arm:

    * Do my SNPs (below) suggest anything about fine-tuning my protocol?


    * Is there some reason not to take iron with other supps? (I fancy I'd heard Fred say that somewhere.)

    * I've been taking glutamine/glycine 2:1 daily. Cease?

    * I tick a few boxes on both Freddd's undermethylators and his overmethylators lists. What does that mean?

    * Freddd has vitamin A as one of his support supps. Isn't there study evidence that vitamin A does more harm than good?

    * What about niacin/B3? Freddd says to limit it. However I want to try the Freddd protocol on a friend who is a little delusional. Hoffer's orthomolecular studies & experience suggest that B3 is the key chemical for fixing psychosis, & to use lots of it.

    * Are lab tests for RBC folate & active B12 of use prior to starting the protocol?

    * When I did Rich's SMP a year ago, I took hydroxy B12 (not methyl or AdoCbl). Yet the SMP fixed the severe reactions to thiol foods that I was incurring via heavy metal chelation. (It was an overnight cure of a problem that had had me bedridden for much of the previous 6 months.) Would that have been the m-folate? Or could hydroxy B12 conceivably help with these sulfur problems?

    * If we opt to use alpha lipoic acid as part of the Freddd protocol, should we take it three-hourly round the clock, to minimise redistribution of mercury?


    * A basic question: With Fred's protocol, am I making good a B12 deficiency, or am I remethylating, or both? (I take it they're different?)

    * My oldest symptom (40 years) is psoriasis. Has the protocol had any success against that?

    Thanks again.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  20. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    you should get in touch with ahmo. ahmo wrote up an extensive guide to freddd's protocol and I would be lost without it

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