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increase from 1250 to 1500 mb12 and really suffering

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by suzanne, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    I am in a lot of distress. i have been on fredd's protocol for 6 months now and really struggeld all the way with increased headpain and new symtpoms of nausea. My body itch is worse but my energy has generally been better. I continue to get almost daily migraines. I am currently taking 1500 mb12 and 600 of m olate plus most of the co factors ( not TMG or vitamin D). Vitamin D makes me itch even worse.

    I have tried increasing potassium but it does not seem to make any difference.

    In desperation to feel better I decided to trial what an increase in mb12 would do- I FEEL A LOT WORSE. I increased my dose of m b12 14 days ago- at first I noticed some increase in nausea and headpain. But the in the last 4 days, i feel so bad i am needing to go back to bed. Since increasing the mb12 the itch has got worse, the headpain is severe, I feel more nauseus and i have an odd sensation of ear ache. My head pin feels like a build up of pressure. My body is aching in odd spots- wrists and right side of back in particular. i have also noticed these past 4 days or so that i feel really tired like i need to sleep more- a tiredness feeling like being hit by a bus- not nice tiredness.


    Is it possible that the increased dose of Mb12 is just too much for my body- should I go back to a dose of say, 1000 mb12 a day and see if I improve?

    I have stopped the protocol since yesterday lunch time but still feel pretty awful. I am living on huge doses of charcoal 4 times a day- it does seem to help but is only shortlive as a benefit.

    I am just not sure what to do. i know I have raised this before, but I do think I have concurrent mercury issues ( ongoing problems with candida and all mercury cheators make me feel as sick as a dog).

    Any ideas about how I might make progress? I need to do something as i just cannot function at the moment.

    is it likely that the benefits from this protocol might just take longer ? Not sure if I should just drop back my dose of m b12 or trial some mercury chelation- can someone tell me if this protocol should deal with the mercury issues without needing to chelate?

    I kinda feel lost, but dont want to stop the protocol althogether as i am not as sick as I was- at leat my energy leels were allowing me to exercise before i increased the m b12 dose.
  2. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Did you get your mercury tested?
  3. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    I think that Fredd might say you need more folate for that amount of b12...? I'm not sure ...

    How much extra potassium did you try? I feel horrible when I'm taking any amount of Bs unless I'm supplementing at least an extra 1000mg of potassium per day and some days I need up to another 500 to 1000 on top of that.

    Best to you!

    Audrey
  4. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    Hi guys,

    I sure need help. I have stopped the supplements a day ago and have burning skin, burning at the top of my stomach ( pancreas region) and just feel tired, itchy and headachey.

    I have not had my mercury teted- dr said best not to do the challege test as I seem to react badly to the chelators I have already tried- he was reluctant to test by this method- i can only go by my response to mercury chelators being that they all make my itchy skin symptoms and headaches, nausea worse.

    I have been on 600mg of m folate since I started the protocol. At one stage i out the m folate up to 800 but due o headaches I decided to drop it down to the 600 again. i do not take any of the other folates or NAC or glutathione.

    Freed might post back what he thinks- some thing is not right, for sure. i feel at my worst since I started this porotocol.

    I have been taaking 5000mcg potassium a day for the last week- it has made no difference.

    Suzanne
  5. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    sounds like a detox crisis ...maybe you mobilised too much crap.. and overwhelmed yr detox system and maybe caused some redistribution..

    can you get some glutathione? liposomal...you're probably depleted in that...and if you could tolerate them.. some chelators.. microsilica from klinghardt's online store...(he has one in europe, one in the US).

    I find I can tolerate glutathione if i take B2 & B3...like simultaneoulsy.. and maybe some molybdenum & selenium.

    I know Fredd would disagree but i don't buy his glutathione theory... Appreciate everythign else he says.. but think his reaction to glutathione is somewhat unique.

    you said the charcoal helps.. but charcoal only binds whats in the gut....plus it can dehyrdate you..

    Pectasol complex (iherb) might help too.

    But honestly, sounds like u need a big glutathione IV. I think you overdid it.
  6. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    I just cant tolerate glutathine- makes me feel like I am going to vomit- the symptoms I get on it are like the worst hangover feeling i have ever hd- and that was on a tiny dose that I took transdermally. So, no glutathione for me.

    I wish I knew what to do next. i think I will saty another 24 hours off the mb12 and then, i am not sure what direction to take. I have been struggling with the doses of m b 12 since i started this protocol-all symptoms seem worse ecet the energy level. But for the past 4 days i am drowsy, itchy, aching and have bad headache. Dont know if i have just taken too much m b12 for my system to deal with- or if i am not taking enough folate?

    I am taking 5000 mg of potassium adn it has not made a difference ot my syptoms- so not sure that is the problem.

    As to pectasol and other mercury chelators they make me feel very SICK- so I am not intending to start mercury chelation in amongst all this crisis. Fredd, do you have any views?

    Did anyone else have these difficulties for the first 6 months or more- I am so confused about how to find my way out of this.
  7. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I went through really awful days shortly after I switched to the active protocol from the SMP. I can understand how hopeless we feel when symptoms are huge like this. I had the awful itching you mention for years, on and off. It was my worst symptoms at some point, I couldn't bear clothes at all. It came back hard last week but it's not as bad right now. I'm sure it has something to do with nerve irritation and putting back energy from the b12 on those nerves makes it awful until nerves heal enough. That's my hypothesis at least.

    Regarding the glutathione, I think it depends on your starting level. If you are very low, it might be beneficial, but it's a fair possibility that someone with normal level taking more of it could induce a b12 deficiency like Freddd, think he was already partially recovered when he tried it if I remember correctly.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    How much potassium, how taken? If you need 2000mg and you are taking 600mg, it wouldn't make any dofference. If you are taking a form you can't absorb, it wouldn't help. You need to get your routine potassium usage high enough to approcimately handle it and extra as needed. After this long you may need 2000-3000mg a day for a few days. If you try it again, try a different form. Get your potassium tested becasue you could be in very bad trouble. You need to make another attempt to correct it becasue if it is low potassium and that is almost certain, you are getting in worse trouble day by day.
  9. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I find electrolytes help when I have overwhelmed my system.
    A castor oil pack with heat (google instructions) can relieve a congested liver. Do it for an hour.

    According to my ND, a foggy head can be a sign of a backed up, overwhelmed liver.

    Glutathione: Can't speak for anyone else, but I got 600mg in an IV a month ago.. got horrible neuro symptoms for 2 days afterwards.

    Went back last week and got 1 GRAM IV, but this time I took B2 & B3 SIMULTANEOUSLY so the glut wouldn't oxidise and aggravate my oxidative stress following Rich Van K's theory. Felt fine, felt good afterwards... got a tiny neuro symptom which I recognised as glutathione breaking down to glutamate (thank u amy yasko...) popped a couple of gaba. Bob's your uncle. I was fine.

    I really doubt you can't tolerate pectasol. Pectasol is just apple pectin. Pretty benign stuff. Not a sulfur chelator.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Suzzanne,

    I do believe you have your mcg and mg mixed up or you are in trouble. 5000mcg of potassium is 5mg. 600mg of folate is 75 of the 800mcg tablets. So what are you taking?
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquarius girl,

    Best I can figure is this. And this can happen:
    The glutathione has dumped all the b12 out of your system causing severe folate deficiency via methyltrap. Some doses of 8mg Metafolin several times AFTER the two doses of b12, a 50mg sublingal mb12 (Jarrow) (2-3 hours) and 50mg of adb12 (2-3 hours) to get it back into your brain will make a lot of difference If I am reading this correctly. You may need several such mb12 and adb12 doses.

    This is what it appears to me to be. This is your game of you bet your life so you make you own choices and put your life down on whatever you choose.

    I would bet that I can tell you how to demonstrate what happens with glutathione, that it dumps the b12 out of your system then causing the problems. Following this out then with the methylfolate and very little b12 in your brtain, what b12 is avaialble is sucked into interaction with the folate and then you have an neurological crash that can cause onset of Subacute Combined degnerartion that does real damage to the brain, like playing Russian Roulette. This is a very serious thing if that is what is happening.

    You can get low on potassium when the b12/foalte is working and then trgger a crisis woth the glutathione.
  12. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd- Suzanne here.

    I am taking 1250 mcg of mb12 ( raised the dose 14 dys ago and not sure if that is my problem with all my increased symptoms). So for now I have stopped the mb12 for a day or 2 to see what happens.

    i have been taking 600mcg of m folate- 400mch in the douglas and 200mcg extra solgar brand.

    I have been experimenting with between 5000-6000 mg of potassium (for over a week) but it doesnt seem to make any difference and I am in bad shape at the moment. I can describe that i feel very unwell with increased body itch, nausea, burning skin, clammy and headaches. I also feel drowsy and sort of clammy. just feel sick.

    Any thoughts? Could it be the increased mb12 dose that has tipped me over the edge? i was only just tolerating my symtpms when i was taking 1250 and then i went to 1500- wasnt too bad for a week or so but now I just am over the top sick.
  13. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd
    I am indeed working diligently on increasing my potassium intake which was zero.
    I appreciate you hammering away at this point.
    But I can't get my head around the glutathione-induced folate deficiency. Do you have any links?
    And why did I actually feel good on the larger glut IV the second time, once I added in the B2 & B3 if your theory is correct?
    Honestly, it would really be good to settle this point once and for all, & figure out the differences you and RVK have on this point.

    Thanks
    AQ (and sorry for butting in to Suzanne's thread)
  14. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Fredd

    With regard to Suzanne's crisis:have you looked at the results of the methylations pathway panel in the files section of the CFS Yasko group, which, if memory serves, show that all of us experienced a worsening of oxidative stress on Rich's simplified protocol before experiencing improvement.

    In other words, the protocol initially aggravates oxidative stress. Isn't that one reason why people could feel worse, in addition to the unmasking of hidden deficiences such as potassium?
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    But I can't get my head around the glutathione-induced folate deficiency.


    It's also a paradoxical looking folate defieincy. The mechanism is pretty simple. Glutathione, whether infused or precursors like NAC/l-glutamine, combines with, as far as I can tell, most all forms of cobalamin, and specifically mb12 and adb12, the two active forms. It combines with these two forms at least, virtually immediately, and without limit. It would appear that 1mg of glutathione can combine with 4mg of cobalamin. As the body's entire load of cobalamin is said to be 2.5 to 5 mg, 1.25mg of glutathione is enough to destroy 100% of the body's entie load of active and inactive cobalamins. When it combines with cobalamin forming glutathionylcobalamin for some reason it becomes a preferred excretion form being excreted even more rapidly than cyanocbl, the preferred speed champion for kidney excretion. This can be easily seen by anybody who takes b12 of a large enough dose. Suddenly the urine becomes MUCH redder very suddenly providing very visual evidence of the rapid excretion of far more than can be accounted for by the most recent dose.

    Then when the methylfolate enters the cell for a DNA transaction and finds no cofactor in the form of mb12 the methylfolate is flushed out of the cell. This was identified by Rich as the "methyl trap", sometimes also called the "methylfolate trap", which was first hypothesized perhaps 50 years ago. This gives a high serum level of methylfolate yet induces severe folate deficiency symptoms so may look paradoxical but isn't casued by taking folic acid or folinic acid.


    Rich broke it down to 3 proposed categories:

    1 - Those that have a bad reaction right off the bat.
    2 - Those who have what seems to be a favorable response at first but then it goes bad.
    3 - Those who have what seems to be a favorable response. added by me (or it hasn't caught up to them yet).


    So I will make an attempt at describing them in concert with by hypothesis that glutathione flushes the b12 from every body.

    Based on the trial with 10 people, including me, all of whom had a great deal of success with mb12,adb12 and Metafolin, 100% of the 10 had the same basic response to glutathione, RETURN of previously corrected folate deficiency symptoms starting in hours and increasing for weeks. RETURN of previously corrected mb12 deficiency symptoms starting after about 1 week and increasing for the balance of the trials. RETURN of previously corrected adb12 deficiency symptoms starting after about 4 weeks or so of trial and increasing thereafter. In the first few days at low dose a lowering of pain was perveived by some but this turned out to be a numbing of neurological pain, not actually an improvment but a worsening of symptoms despite what the immediate interpretation might be.


    Based on a trial of 2 people who started glutathione before starting mb12, adb12 and Metafolin- Some benefit is perceived. Nothing at all changes when mb12 ,adb12 and Metaffolin are added. Then glutathione is discontinued b12 and folate deficidency symptoms start diminshing slowly and eventually considerable improvment.

    People on hycbl and folinic acid or folic acid not having had relief from folate or b12 deficiency symptoms report some improvement from glutathione. Some later report worsening of folate and b12 deficiency symptoms.


    1 - Those that have a bad reaction right off the bat.

    These are people without current folate and b12 deficiencies, either because they don't have them or they have been relieved by b12 and folate that was effecttive for them

    2 - Those who have what seems to be a favorable response at first but then it goes bad.

    These could be people with folate deficiency symptoms, perhaps from paradoxical folate deficiency but without b12 deficiency symptoms. Therefore whatever benefit is felt that might occur or be perceived as occurring is early before the b12 deficiency symptoms become apparent. Again perceived benefit could be worsening of nerve damage deadening the pain rather than relieving.

    3 - Those who have what seems to be a favorable response. added by me (or it hasn't caught up to them yet).

    Those with severe folate and b12 deificiencies widespread and severe enough that no worsening is perceived and improvment can be by further damaging of the nerves so that things are perceived as "feeling better" or maybe even some real benefit oterhwise obscured by rapidly worsening deficiency symptoms

    There are no references besides those on this site, the former wrong diagnosis site and other sites mentioning the posts on these sites. There are lots of mentions of "glutathione detox" and "NAC detox" all around the net. The descriptions always come down to the same descriptions, primarily a severe folate deficiency with some b12 deficiency symptoms slipping in for really severe and prolonged cases. There is also a good description of folate deficiency under the "side effects" section of the Cerefolin-NAC package insert whereas the Deplin package insert says "no side effects significantly different from placebo". When those who suffer such "detox" symptoms take sufficient doses of metafolin and mb12/adb12 the "detox" symptoms begin to diminish rapidly.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    in addition to the unmasking of hidden deficiences such as potassium?

    Nonsense! I'm sure some definition of "hidden deficiencies" could be made to fit the facts. However, in the unhealing condition, there are not these deficiencies. Mb12, adb12, Metafolin cause an immediate uptick in cell formation. This is a "rare" occurance with hycbl or cyanocbl because most folks don't reponsd to these so strongly normally. However, with mb12 and metafolin methylation restarts like "right now" and cell formation gets started and on the third day typically the cell formation is requiring a large amount of potassium from serum which contains relatively little, and an induced deficiency occurs. If not supplemented a whole chain of items can then be the "most limiting" nutritional item for cell formation, one after another. There is nothiong "hidden" or "masked" about them. They don't exist untill larger demands are placed upon them quite suddenly. As the potassium needed is often in the 25 to 50% increase in daily amount needed, it isn't a trivial amount that was just lurking to be unmasked. Nobody has 50% extra floating around in their diet.

    have you looked at the results of the methylations pathway panel in the files section of the CFS Yasko group, which, if memory serves, show that all of us experienced a worsening of oxidative stress on Rich's simplified protocol before experiencing improvement

    If you were to read Carmen Wheatley's 3 speculative papers on Hydroxycbl and inflammation, the "scarlet pimpernel" papers, you would see that there is an uptick in inflammation from NO with the use of hyxcbl. Also, a significant percenbtage using folic acid and/or folinic acid, will have a HUGE increase in inflammation form paradoxical folate deficiency. I was shocked when I first started postimg here at the shear quantity of people having these huge inflammatory bad reponses typically called "detox". I wasn't used to seeing it over at wrong diagnosis where we were usinfg mb12/adb12 and metafolin for th most part. There was just a small fraction of such reponses. If you look at my earliest posts here you will see me mention it at the time. It was a stunningly huge differnce to see. So maybe there is routinely a big increase in inflammation on the simplified protocol because of the hycbl added to the inflammatory response caused by paradoxical folate deficiencies added to the huge and very severe inflkammatory responses caused or maintained by glutathione/NAC/whey. No wonder there was so much extra misery here all in the form of inflammatory responses from hycbl and/or paradoxical folate defieicnies and/or glutathione/NAC/whey induced folafte deficiencies.

    have you looked at the results of the methylations pathway panel in the files section of the CFS Yasko group, which, if memory serves, show that all of us experienced a worsening of oxidative stress on Rich's simplified protocol before experiencing improvement


    And NOT widely experienced on the active b12/folate protocol. And that difference is a MAJOR clue.
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    According to the B12 wiki:

    This is a very disease, but something to be aware of. Symptoms are:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001615/
  18. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I wouldn't take such high doses of anything. I am finding that active B's upset my electrolytes, even if I JUST take active B complex (Thorne Basic B) and no extra sublingual mB12 or mfolate. I did not used to notice such a problem and I am thinking it might be from stopping taking the extra 50 mg P5P. I am thinking that the P5P might be what allows my system the choice of whether to make methyls or not because it is the drain to the methyl cycle. I can't verify this yet, I only just thought it and I already screwed up my electrolytes so can't test it today. It's something to consider. When I get electrolyte problems I also take cal/mag (citrate) but I have a vitamin D receptor genetic defect so maybe this is not necessary or good for you.

    I would not persist in something that is screwing up your electrolytes. If you feel you have to take 5-6g potassium you should just stop whatever is making you do that because that is too much...it is an entire days FULL supply and could stop your heart. Making your electrolytes bounce around that much either way, low and high, can kill you.
  19. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Having dealt with everything you have dealt with and spent the last couple of years using these methylation supplements, I find they continue to produce surprisingly strong reactions. The conclusion I have reached is that if you are truly HM toxic to a very significant degree, you are best served by providing collateral support for the rest of the interelated metabolic processes. Some of these DETOX side effects are very challenging, and they make chelation seem like child's play. Your reactions are precisely what I experienced, and it makes perfect sense that as you start to stimulate methionine synthase and the folate cycle that you experience problems because these interrelated downstream processes are marked by compromised enzymatic function. Rich has talked about this for years and can provide a much more competent description, but I found that if you keep ramping up methionine and cysteine in the context of a transsulfuration procesess that is underfunctioning you can get nasty side effects. I suspect NAC makes you feel much worse, TMG, would probably do the same. The nausea, fatigue, headaches, sore spots, etc...go back and look at what I wrote in the first 6 months or so. The sore spots actually largely correspond to where I had FM 15+ years ago. This is crap in your myofascial tissue. It's very caustic as deep tissue massage spreads it out and it burns. Believe it or not this is the process of removing accumulated toxins...whatever they may be. Vitamin D and itching is something reported all the time...seems to be more commonly associated with fat soluble vitamins, and there are numerous hypothesis about this, but I think your side effects suggest you should discontinue this.

    If you are Hg toxic you do not want to use glutathione. Your reaction is very typical. I tried liposomal GSH once and only once. It caused massive fatigue. The mechanism is hypothesized to be related to its properties of having a single sulfahydrl group. If you have large amounts of Hg it attaches to the Hg atom and then drops it somewhere else causing redistributive symptoms. This is what happens after levels of a chelating agent fall precipitously in the blood. If you have a low burden, this probably will not be perceived, so obviously not everyone is going to have a bad response. Plasma cysteine levels are supposedly also a significant variable.

    Here is what I would do:

    Cut the MB12 & 5-MTHF out for a little while or reduce dramatically.
    Stop all the methyl donors (TMG, choline, DMG, SAM-e) if you are taking any.
    Don't give up on Methyl supps, just take a break and then reintroduce to tolerance.
    Take Epsom salt baths everyday and consider very large doses of Moly (1.5 mg for next few days)...The Mg and Sulfate can really help the situation because SUOX problems are probably involved. Also if you have candida problems you esp. need the moly.
    Concentrate on helping liver detox: milk thistle, artichoke extract & taurine.
    Help Glucoronidation by trying Kombucha
    Up your zinc to 100 mg...but in divided doses with meals.
    Consider taking selenium if you are not already.
    High dose biotin for the yeast (10 mg) may help.

    Unfortunately, I consider these stop gap measures if you are indeed Hg toxic. Chelating it out with ALA is where the real progress came for me.

  20. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    This sounds reasonable but I still don't get then when glutathione is safe, especially if the body is supposed to make it? Are any supplemental levels safe? at some point? I apologize that I just don't grasp "technical" info so well.. Im more of a right brained person.

    I have been told at least by folks using Hb12 that glutathione helps it get into cells. Is this accurate at all for Hb12?

    I am not understanding why glutathione is supposed to be so good for the body would flush your b12 down the toilet an destroy you, basically. Does the body really need very litttle glutathione and we are really over taking the system with it? Is it excess glutathione that is combiming with the b12 to be flushed out?

    I know with KPU, badly formed heme (simplistic explanation so probably off a little) takes B6 with it to the toilet which drags zinc along for the ride, but the heme is being disposed of and dragging these other guys with it in the process.. its not a beneficial substance at that point for the body..

    why does glut combine with colbalmin in the first place.. is there a fucntion to that gone awry?

    I have high b12 and Fa in blood.. I think I get the high serum FA means the FA is being kicked out of cells. Since I supplement especially, then I would have high levels in serum as opposed to someone who does not with paradoxical folate deficiency.

    The high serum B12 would mean the b12 is either being kicked out of cells because... ? or not able to get in in the first place.. why? And becasue I supplement, I will have high serum, esp over someone who also has the genetic set up for this who does not supplement?

    methyl folate leaves becasue there is no b12 there to meet it to perform a team function.. (simplistic right brain picture).. b12 cant get in or stay in becasue? (insert image)

    (i am sorry if this is annoying.. I just can't get some kinds of info without an image to put in my brain)






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