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Immunosuppressant or immunostimulant?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Ninan, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    I'm kind of a newbie so please bear with me here. First some facts:

    -- I haven't had a cold or any infection at all since I got ME/CFS in 2004. Doesn't matter how much people cough at me.
    -- When I become allergic to our cat I get a great energy boost.
    -- Got lots of autoimmunity (RA; MS, psoriasis etc) in my family.
    -- Swine flu vaccine left me feeling much better for a month.
    -- Goji berries, that are supposed to stimulate the immune system, makes me feel like shit for four hours, with aching lymph nodes, heavy feeling over my chest and achy throat.

    I draw the conclution that what I need is an immunosuppressant, not a stimulant. Still, the stuff mostly mentioned here, like iisoprisine, are supposed to be stimulants.

    Anyone able to sort this out for me?
    rosie26 and ggingues like this.
  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    I react horrible to boosters but I need modulators instead of suppressants. You need your individual cytokine profile done so you know which one you need.
    Ninan likes this.
  3. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    But aren't modulators either boosters or suppressants?
  4. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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  5. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Thanks for the link (didn't work though, had to look it up). Gave some info. Still confused, though. Maybe I should try immunovir. Not sure how I can get my cytokine profile either.
  6. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Done some reading on immunovir. Says it's "used as an immune stimulator for cancer, herpes, and AIDS."

    Since I haven't caught a virus for ages this makes me a bit worried. Does it mean I don't have the Th2-shift?
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    The th1/th2 theory i think over recent years has been shown not to be 100% accurate, maybe the immune system is too techinical to isolate it down to 2 arms. Theres also a th17 now. Im not discrediting it but its just to technical.

    I think the best way to look at immunovir is that it is an interferon inducer, so it stimulates the immune system to make more interferon. Interferon also has its own antiviral properties as well as increases nk function. So if your nk numbers and or function tests low then its worth a shot.

    Not catching a cold/virus its hard to say what that means. Many symptoms of infections come from the immune system themselves not all from the infection, so if your immune system isnt functioning then its possible that you want get alot of symptoms from an infection that one would typically get like say high temps etc?

    The other thing is that your whole immune system is in overdrive trying to fight the infection thats possibly causing your cfs, so when a cold/flu comes your way it doesnt get a foot hold as the immune system is on high alert and wipes it out before it gets a hold. Its just a theory and could be other reasons why some dont get colds.

    The first few years of cfs i didnt get colds etc either but over time i seem to get more and they take longer to get rid of. Maybe the immune system over time get worn out. Test i have show that my immune system, t-cells are activated but my nk function is low, so aprt of its activated and the other doesnt work, maybe the t cells are trying to compensate for the low nk function??

    cheers!!!
  8. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    I think so too and how would you notice the difference with the reaction to the ME pathogen.

    Not the whole immune system is in overdrive some parts fail.
  9. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    If there is a pathogen, that is. I'm more into the "hit and run"-hypothesis, where the infection is long gone but left antibodies who are reacting to stuff they shouldn't be reacting to. Seems to fit my experience, at least.
    rosie26 likes this.
  10. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    That's my conclusion too -- it's more complicated than Th1/Th2. (Th... 17?? :0 )

    For me it's been the opposite. The first few years (4-5) I got a few mild infections but when I since I got sicker I get nothing.

    Been thinking of that "catching but not reacting"- theory too but I doubt it. The main reason for that is that my father who has Bechterews disease or whatever it's called these days, and from whom I've inherited most bodily challenges, has the same thing. He hardly gets sick (and when he does, he feels better). It's like that for many with autoimmune diseases and I never heard of them collecting pathogens. I think my immune system is wired up, attacking stuff it shouldn't, and while it's at it, protecting me from viruses. Makes sence?

    So, if there is no "ME-pathogen", just autoimmunity, how should we treat that while waiting for rituximab?
    heapsreal likes this.
  11. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    This is really the conclusion I have come to as well. Fits my experience too.
  12. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    we are all different as i feel that im the opposite, if i stop antivirals and get alot worse and the same with antibiotics, when i stop the sinus infections come roaring back. My sleep issues maybe apart of the hit and run theory as treating pathogens doesnt make a difference there. Again maybe its a sub group thing, hate saying it but might be the only way to explain the differences???
    rosie26 likes this.
  13. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I could be wrong heaps.

    I caught a bacterial infection when I was 20 years old, was treated and cleared of it with antibiotics but was left with unexplained inflammation which remains to this day - 30 years later. I have had many tests to check whether the bacterial infection had come back and checked for other bacteria as well but all tests come back "normal " "healthy".
    Very frustrating. As inflammation is a sign something is wrong but what ?

    My health deteriorated from this 20 year old mark, and feel this unresolved inflammation is what has undermined me and caused problems with my immune system. Causing my ME ?

    I have never tried antivirals, only antibiotics which don't help with the inflammation.
    heapsreal likes this.
  14. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    There is little proof that RA, MS etc. are auto-immune diseases. Recent research has suggested links to faulty metabolism and/or chronic infection causing chronic inflammation/scarring.
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    i think proper treatment for us is going to have to be very individual. I dont even know if i have that much faith in infectious testing anymore, it seems from lab to lab that test results can be so different. I think having cfs makes you aware of how much medicine doesnt know, not just about cfs but everything.
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  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    True, there are some people with RA improved on abx. Then there are some with MS that have improved on antivirals. Maybe the term autoimmune is something they use when they cant pin point the infectious cause but with obvious symptoms they cant go to their old standard depression diagnosis when they dont know?
    Sidereal likes this.
  17. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    That's what I think as well, esp. if frequent and/or high fever is absent.
    Sidereal likes this.
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Many ME/CFS patients become highly immune to catching colds. This is very common, and not at all unusual.

    The best explanation for this that I have come across is the following one from Richard van Konynenburg:


    heapsreal likes this.
  19. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    That is a nice discription.

    I will add : I think there is not enough interferon type 2.
  20. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    Bah, I wish things were less complicated. Is Rich's theory consistent with the rituximab-findings?

    Valtrex has no effect on me btw. I haven't tried any other meds like it.

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