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Immune system questions and actually finding some relief

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Can someone who understands this please help.

    When I take a big dose of pycnogenol I get a big reduction in fatigue within a couple of hours but I also sometimes get a rash for the first couple of days. This probably means it is modulating my immune system. Would that be correct?

    Cfs is apparently a th2 dominant condition but pycnogenol is supposed to boost the th2 arm of the immune system.

    How is this possible?

    And if I were in fact th1 dominant would that mean I probably have an active cellular infection (as i beleive this is the th1 primary role)? Or can the immune system just go out of whack for no reason?

    Out of curiosity what is the theory behind rutuximab, is it working on the th1 or th2 arm of the system?

    If anyone can answer these questions that would be great.

    Giving pycnogenol would also be worth a try. The effects begin almost immediately.
    Beyond likes this.
  2. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Great to see something that works as usual. How much pycnogenol do you take?
  3. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Ab
    About 1200mg at a time.

    If anyone does come along that understands all this about the immune system. Do they know of anything that would dampen the th1 response rather than try raising the th2? As I believe that although the pycnogenol helps with cfs symptoms it stirs up eczema. Thanks
    Beyond likes this.
  4. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    At the risk of sounding like a broken record (Do you young-uns even understand that reference? ;))~

    The immune system is far more complicated than th1/th2. Balancing th1/th2 is getting to be an old and somewhat discredited concept. For example, there is at least one other "arm" that was discovered about 5(?) years ago -- th17, which may be more of a problem with ME/CFS than either th1 or th2.
    [​IMG]
    aimossy likes this.
  5. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Ok
    Ok thanks.

    So if taking something that stimulates the th2 arm makes someone feel better it does not have to mean that the th1 or th17 arms are over stimulated and/ or the th2 is under active?
  6. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    That's correct as far as I understand it, but I'm no expert. :)
  7. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Well that complicates things then doesn't it.

    So basically it is a matter of just trialling immune modulating substances one by one till you find something that works?

    And to your understanding, the fact the th2 is helping doesnt necessarily mean I have an active infection either?

    Thanks for the help SOC
  8. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    How curious, then Pycnogenol in fact it is worsening/boosting the immune response that causes eczema. I have read of people getting more eczema with colostrum, another supplement that affects the immune system. I would say the anti-fatigue properties of Pycnogenol on you in such large doses are more related with antioxidant and antinflammatory effects though.
  9. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Yes I thought of this too. Do you know if there is a differentiation between the way substances have antinflamitory effects?

    Like are there different ways they achieve the same thing and I could substitute for the pycnogenol to get the good effects without the immune up regulation and eczema?
  10. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    I don't think trial and error is likely to be an effective way of treating immune system dysfunction. The immune system is far, far too complicated. Ideally, one should get immune testing from a doctor knowledgeable about immune dysfunction followed by treatment for the specific immune dysfunction. Now if only there were more than half a dozen doctors who know anything about immune dysfunction in ME/CFS. :rolleyes:

    We don't all seem to have the same immune dysfunction, so what works for one of us could be exactly wrong for others. Some have low NK cell function for which Imunovir or AHCC are sometimes used. Inosine is sometimes used for low NK cell number or function, I think. But other people have normal NK cell number and/or function but low CD8+ cell numbers. Some of us have low immunoglobulins for which there are completely different treatments.

    Frankly, I don't know what it means that pycnogenol is making you feel better. :confused: It sounds like a good thing, though. :D
    dannybex and Beyond like this.
  11. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Well knackers is a matter of trying, really. If pycnogenol helps, probably other things on that line would help, such as resveratrol, quercetin, curcumin, grape seed extract, ECGC... Have you tried staying with the Pycnogenol and see what happens with the rash?
  12. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    No I haven't been able to stay on it for an extended period yet

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