The Power and Pitfalls of Omics: George Davey Smith’s storming talk at ME/CFS conference
Read about the talk that stole the show at a recent ME/CFS conference in Simon McGrath's two-part blog.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Immune network analysis of cerebrospinal fluid in ME/CFS with atypical & classical presentations

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by AndyPR, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    New paper by M Hornig, C G Gottschalk, M L Eddy, X Che, J E Ukaigwe, D L Peterson and W I Lipkin

    From http://microbediscovery.org/2017/04/04/new-research-discovers-evidence-of-atypical-classical-mecfs/

    Full paper available http://www.nature.com/tp/journal/v7/n4/abs/tp201744a.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    MEMum, justy, rosie26 and 40 others like this.
  2. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,038
    Likes:
    4,466
    Not quite sure what to make of this appearing in Translational Psychiatry. What was their logic in publishing this there?

    I am curious how bifurcating a disease profile before the disease is broadly accepted as an entity will be received. For many in the medical community, certainly in the community this journal is usually associated with, taking a zero sum and halving it still will leave you with a zero.

    I am not clear how inflammatory markers present in depressive disorders, or if there are comparisons that can be made, but this would concern me somewhat. For instance, does one part of this dichotomy align more with percieved mental disorder cytokine/chemokine presentations?

    Who can take (hijack?) this data where?
     
    Marky90 likes this.
  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes:
    23,188
    This paper is hard to understand :eek:.

    What alternate mechanisms of pathogenesis do they have in mind?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    Hutan, Marky90, Never Give Up and 3 others like this.
  4. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes:
    5,482
    UK
    I'm pleased I'm not the only one who was thinking that o_O

    Can any of our experts give us a breakdown of the different immune markers and what they suggest may be happening?
     
    MEMum, Solstice, GreyOwl and 3 others like this.
  5. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes:
    5,482
    UK
    This in particular drew my eye:

    I had a highly atypical onset with some unusual symptoms that do not present in other patients. In my eyes, this quote suggests something that many of us have long suspected and that has been confirmed to me by my own experience: that a range of different triggers may produce a common endpoint (for atypical patients).
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  6. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,463
    Likes:
    19,556
    Essentially they are saying that classical presentation and atypical presentation may well be 2 different diseases and are 2 different pathological processes. it's a very interesting paper.
     
  7. Chrisb

    Chrisb Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes:
    5,354
    Now remind me. Who was it who said in about 1988/9 that aetiology is unimportant?
     
    Marky90 likes this.
  8. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    Umm, I'm not reading it like that. Different processes maybe, same disease.
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,812
    Or a bit of both. Different processes result in the same primary cluster of symptoms, with some of those processes creating a distinct additional cluster of symptoms in some patients. So ME, and ME++
     
    Pendergast, justy, Solstice and 6 others like this.
  10. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

    Messages:
    512
    Likes:
    1,872
    USA
    To our resident experts...can we align Fluge & Mella's responders along the classical and atypical subsets?
     
  11. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

    Messages:
    4,613
    Likes:
    12,435
    South Australia
    Looks like a bit of data fishing for more papers, but it's an interesting hypothesis nonetheless.
     
    barbc56 and Marky90 like this.
  12. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes:
    3,822
    Bristol
    I'm glad they're going with classical and atypical terminology. This seems promising for future research, if you know at the beginning who is classical/atypical, this would likely lead to more useful results.
     
    justy, Solstice, simeyss and 5 others like this.
  13. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,463
    Likes:
    19,556
    What is the hypothesis you mention?

    From my point of view, there are no hypothesis, but simply findings. They are finding the cytokines are different in the CSF from 2 groups of patients who have ME: those with classical presentation compared to those with atypical presentation.

    The patients belong to Dr Peterson's cohort who have catalogued (and frozen) biological samples, and carefully collected data and history about them. Moreover, he has followed them over time and this study was able to look at the patients who subsequently developed cancer and other issues.

    Very interesting and invaluable for scientists of the caliber of Mady Hornig and Ian Lipkin, but also all of our researchers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  14. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,038
    Likes:
    4,466
    There are embedded hypotheses. For instance, that one can split patients, who clinically satisfy requirements for an ME/CFS diagnosis, into at least two subcategories that can be demonstrated with CSF variables.
     
    Manganus and trishrhymes like this.
  15. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

    Messages:
    480
    Likes:
    725
    United States, New Hampshire
    It seems pretty clear that immune system dysfunction is a major factor in CFS/ME. I just wish researchers would focus more on the cause of the immune system dysfunction.

    It seems to me that information, could lead to very good treatments. This cytokine analysis is all over the place, with no defined target for treatment.
     
    justy likes this.
  16. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes:
    5,482
    UK
    One of the interesting elements of the article at microbediscovery.org is the hypothesis that classical patients ultimately experience immune exhaustion, whereas atypical patients may continue to experience a smouldering immune system:

    I wonder if the smouldering inflammatory process in atypical patients aligns to the group that rarely/never contracts infections, whereas the immune exhaustion in classical patients aligns to the group that seems to regularly contract infections.

    This unusual dichotomy amongst patients always struck me as an important focal point of research, but to my knowledge it is not really on the radar of researchers.
     
  17. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,463
    Likes:
    19,556
    This is the opposite for me. Classical presentation, haven't had a cold in over 8 years of illness.
     
  18. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

    Messages:
    941
    Likes:
    639
    uk
    And what about acute classic onset,atypical presentation
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
    justy, Solstice and Hutan like this.
  19. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes:
    10,089
    Just a random thought and probably of no consequence but I wonder if the atypical type ME might just be a post along the road to the total immune exhaustion type. We know that there is a different biologic presentation after about three years and I'm wondering if their are other changes over time that follow a less definite time frame/pattern.
     
  20. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

    Messages:
    512
    Likes:
    1,872
    USA
    As a follow-up thought to @Cheesus, it is interesting that the smoldering immune process seems to lead to the development of additional medical problems.

     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page