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If CFS is an autoimmune disease, could boosting the immune system be harmful?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Waverunner, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    I don't know. With the digestive system trashed, many people have all sorts of multiple deficiencies and very little possiblity it would appear, of being able to get it all from diet alone. From observation, there are a whole lof of things for which the healing must way until the foundations for it are built. It wasn't until about 2 years in and many other things quite well healed that my body was able to rebuild my muslces, and only after the l-carnitine fumarate was added. Of course if I had found the paradoxical folate deficiency sooner, perhaps my digestion would have healed more sooner and been able to absorb enough to rebuild my muscles sooner. There are so many dependencies stacked on dependencies that I don't know. It wasn't until after the l-carnitine fumarate that I had full exercise tolerance back. I think maybe the mineral transport gets rebuilt after a while increasing the healing capacity of the system.
     
  2. ramakentesh

    ramakentesh Senior Member

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    Under conventional understandings of autoimmunity, yes boosting the immune system would make the condition worse - at least if you are moderating function of the innate immune system.
     
  3. ramakentesh

    ramakentesh Senior Member

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    Since there is almost no evidence that this applies in any other autoimmune diseases other than conjectural assumption its hard to say and probably almost irrelevant.
     
  4. kms1990

    kms1990

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    Hi Freddd,

    I am curious. How does B12 lower your Vit D3 levels?
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi KMS,

    I don't know that it does or did. However, as b12/folate defieincies alters just about everything I wouldn't be surprised. Let's consider adb12. It does 2 things. One of the things is sit in the mitochondria and generate ATP in the Krebs cycle. Adb12 also alters fatty acids some of which are used in making myelin for your nerves. Mb12 affects how hormones are generated in ones body. Vitamin D3 is a hormone. Perhaps it affects the generation directly or perhaps it affects the fatty acids required for generating D3 with the help of UV light. These deficiencies trash the digestive system. Perhaps it affects our ability to absorb food source D3.

    On the way back when these things have been supplemented with the correct items and amounts, the body processes all try to start back up. This can exhaust all manner of resources suddenly. I do suggest 3000-5000IU with the active b12 protocol so as not to exhaust things during healing.

    Have you any reason to think it does lower D3.
     
  6. kms1990

    kms1990

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    Hi FReddd,

    Thank you for that information. I do not have any cause in thinking that b12 lowers my D3 directly. However, I know that I have low D3 level. I think the last documented were 23 on a 30-100 normalcy scale. What kind of supplementation do you suggest for a D3 deficiency?
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kms,

    I just take ordinary D3 supplements or the active A/D supplements from COD or SHARK liver oil. I also spend enough time in the sun spring, summer and fall without sunblock to have a mild tan over my whole body. Since there are 400-1000 IU of D3 in A&D supplements, often in calcium supplements and other multi ingrediant supps, I add them all up and add additional 1000IU or 2000IU D3 caps to bring it up to 4000-5000 total IU. It takes me about 2 weeks to notice the difference of getting 30 minutes per side of sun a day.
     
  8. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    D3 isn't used up or anything that I know of by the methyl cycle however inadequate D3 does dysregulate methyl cycle enzymes (I don't remember which enzyme(s)). You should get a blood test for D3. The level that it should be is 70. Your D3 level affects your urinary ph so theoretically you can determine how much you need via litmus and measurement of your urinary ph. Urinary ph is supposed to be somewhat acidic (opposit of blood which is supposed to be 7.3-7.4, slomewhat alkaline). If your urinary ph is ALKALINE you have too much D3 and you will contract more infections as microbes can grow in that ph (so if you are female you will be prone to UTI's). If your urinary ph is too acidic you do not have enough D3. That said, I do not know what urinary ph is supposed to be nor do I trust science to know because over a third of Americans have a serious D3 deficiency that had gone undiscovered for centuries. So...IMHO the only way to really know is to get a blood test and see that it is 70. Medical science will only care if it is less than 50. 100 is too high and will make your urine alkaline.

    If you have a VDR genetic defect like I do, you probably need 7000 IU/day. If not, who knows? I personally wouldn't take but a couple thousand a day until I was tested. If you want to get D3 as prescription (maybe paid for by your insurance? dunno) then you would want to test before supplementing because the medical profession (except for Life Extension doctors) generally only think it's low if it is under 50. I can tell you that the prescription dose is a 50,000 IU pill once a week. It is NAUSEATING. There is NO prescription daily dose. So IMHO not worth it to try to get it covered by insurance.
     
  9. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    About autoimmune - my opinion is that the best thing you can do to combat it is take high dose anti-oxidants. Even the hyperthyroid website says so (www.ithyroid.com sites selenium, an antioxidant as being very important in taming hyperthyroid). So since I take high anti-oxidants, including selenmium, when I went hyperthyroid, I never had those auto-antibodies (tested negative) and as soons as I corrected the problem (two-fold -- too much iodine, not enough copper) I went back to normal and no damage to my thyroid.

    Even if the auto-immune condition is reacting to a pathogen - the reason it is doing so is because that pathogen is giving off acid waste and causing your immune system to fire h2o2 (an oxidant) at it to try to kill it, but that h2o2 ricochets around and damages healthy tissue too and there is so much oxidation that your immune system gets trigger happy. Well, anyway, whenever you are sick, because of the way the immune system kills pathogens, your need for antioxidants rises dramatically. I read this in a book on sports nutrition because the immune system also comes into play to mop up dead and dying cells (h2o2 again) and olympic athletes who do not take huge doses of antixodants become ill after their events.

    In all cases, the one thing you can do to limit the extent of the damage to your body is to take care of free radicals with antioxidants. If you fall and hit your head you have so many damaged brain cells and if you can supply anti-oxidants in sufficient dose that is the end of it, otherwise the area of damaged cells gets larger and larger due to the immune system and h2o2. You may not be able to ever figure out how to stop the original damage whether from infection or hitting your head, but you can always minimize the damage with anti-oxidants.

    So that's my plug.

    Meanwhile I swear by Olive Leaf Extract. Read up on it. It kills most everything. If it is not enough I also swear by Oil of Oregano. It even kills gram negative bacteria. These things may have side effects. Olive Leaf significantly lowers blood pressure for instance. I am only giving a clue for you to research yourself if interested. I recently found I cant function w/o olive leaf extract - I take 1g/day. I have severe neurological problems w/o it due to probably digestive tract pathogens (I do not make enogh HCL).

    Rydra
     
  10. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Could this be a reason for very acidic urine and saliva?
     
  11. ramakentesh

    ramakentesh Senior Member

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    its funny how people here apply CFS etiological conjecture to autoimmune disease.
     
  12. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I am a little confused. Does an ANA test catch ALL sorts of auto-immunity? Because I had an ANA test and was clear. But I have been diabeteic and I hear rumors that that is auto-immune and I just got back an allergy lab that said I have auto-immune against my HPA (adrenal) axis.

    I have never felt I had a poor immune system for although I catch EVERYTHING that comes around, I throw it off fast too. (I am the Queen of the 1-day cold). Echinea can prevent pregnancy (which says to me it messes with your hormones, so no thanks!). I take 1g/day Olive Leaf Extract to kill everything that my HCL would kill if I made enough and it makes a HUGE difference for me. (I tried doing without it and a month later felt so bad I had to add it back and it made me hugely better in 1 day). (Note: it is thought to be an ACE inhibitor and I have high blood pressure). I dont deliberately take immune boosting stuff but dont really know if the things I take for other reasons could have immune boosting effect. I am really concerned about auto-immune. Also wondering if low stomach acid is due to auto-immune. But...there was that perfect ANA...

    Rydra
     
  13. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I'm interested in how they test for autoimmune problems too, as seem to keep reading about conditions where an autoimmune problem is suspected but unconfirmed.
     
  14. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    Could the subject of this thread (could boosting the immune system in an autoimmune disease be harmful) explain why I often react adversely to zinc supplements with headache and flu-like aching?
     
  15. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    I made a shake out of acai today (you can get frozen cubes of it with berries at coop grocery) and felt rotten for rest of day. I avoid immune boosting supps; I forgot, so acai boosts immune like echinecea? that could explain malaise then.
     
  16. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    I think there may be different reasons for CFS; thus, it is possible that some people have weakened immune systems because of viruses and for others the problem is an overactive immune system. It could even be both (a chronic viral infection that causes the immune system to overreact). There are a lot of signs that my immune system is over active. I make too many B cells, not all the time, but clearly more then a normal person. I feel worse when I sleep over 6 hours a night and when I take supplements known to strengthen my immune system, but I also feel worse when I don't take my Valtrex. I think I feel worse when I sleep longer because during sleep my immune system is working too hard. If I were to take a guess, I would say that my immune system is probably over reacting to viruses in my system. What do you do in that case? If we took something like Ritaubmax without antivirals or antiretrovirals, would it make us worse? It seems like the best course of action would be tests for antibodies for all the known viruses and then treatment with antivirals (and antiretrovirals if needed) for those viruses along with immune suppressant medication such as chemo meds. Doesn't it? But what if there is no treatment for a certain virus or we are infected with an unknown virus? What then?

    (Excuse the spelling troubles tonight please)
     
  17. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Avatar says -BEFORE YOU DIAGNOSE YOURSELF WITH DEPRESSION OR LOW SELF ESTEEM, FIRST MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT, IN FACT, JUST SURROUNDED BY ASSHOLES.

    Ok, I love this! Not that I think I am surrounded by assholes, but it made me smile and that is the anti-depression!

    But - sigh - something you said made me wonder again...what does it mean if you have an antibody to something? Only that you were exposed to it. It does not mean that you have the infection as far as I know.

    I hope Rich can get in to tell us a bit more about how auto-immune works?

    Rydra
     
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Autoantibody autoimmunity is tested for antibody by antibody I think. They are thousands of potential candidates, doctors have tests for some, and they pick them based on symptoms. There is no way of knowing for sure which autoantibodies you might have until you are tested for all of them. There are however general markers for autoimmune disease. Soluble interleukin-2 receptor is one (sIL2r). Many of us have elevated sIL2r (I am not sure this was published, mine is a third of the way to lethal levels). There are others but I have forgotten them. Responding to Rituximab might indicate an autoimmune disease, and that means probably at least two thirds of us have autoimmune issues. Bye, Alex
     
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    If you talk to people who have conditions like lupus or MS, many will say it started after a viral infection, i think maybe somehow the immune system could be damaged by these infections causing autoimmune problems.
    MS forums mention responding to valtrex, not a cure but finding improvements. I think there is still alot medicine dont know about the immune system and infections. I think sometimes we think medicine knows all the conditions present in this world but i think in 50 yrs time they will see how little they do know now??

    cheers!!!
     
  20. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Very good thinking heapsreal. So realistically we want to get the nervous system to relax and to stop jumping at everything, right? I find the sensitivity or -shock- that people get with things is very akin to the learnt psychological response, not just in childhood but possibly in the womb to the world/people around us. If someone has a family member who is older who constantly criticising then someone learns to walk on eggshells and respond to things quite viciously, which would then be reflected in our bodies with -sensitivities- to food, emotions, loud noises, etc.
     

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