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IBS is not "all in the mind"

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by cigana, Jan 13, 2011.

  1. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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  2. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Oh no... he's far too sophisticated for that. It's not that he think IBS is a psychological problem, it's just that he thinks, for pragmatic reasons, it's best to treat it as if it is. Or something. Your mind is a result of the chemical operation of your gut, and it's time to abondon the naive dualism of the past. Something like that. Us lowly patients wouldn't understand.

    Wonderful to hear their making progress with IBS though, I know a lot of CFS patients are troubled by it. For those with IBS, I'd have thought it's possible that the cause of the IBS could also be the cause of CFS... constant gut/digestive/etc problems must be a tiring strain upon the body. Hopefully we'll see some things moving foreard more rapidly now.
  3. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    Definitely applies here. IBS has been one of the first symptoms and the most constant over the course of the illness. It always feels to me that most if not all the symptoms are aggravated when the IBS is worse (probably just me catastrophising!;)) and I always feel like the constant headaches and brain fog originate there. In fact I usually feel better before or a few hours after a meal once the 'distress' has eased.

    I'm pretty sure, at least for a fair proportion of us, that the problems originate in the gut.
  4. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    He is just beyond discussion now. Except - catch up with the big wide world. With the help of international collaberation released at last from his grasp - they and we know more. Certain amount of humour in this part of the world - might get another dodgy diagnosis.
  5. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Quote from the article:

    There are those mast cells again...
  6. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    nice one! :)
  7. Carrigon

    Carrigon Senior Member

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    One of the first symptoms I had in the 80's was IBS. And the first thing the idiot doctors told me was, "it's your nerves, you need to relax". Yeah, right. Prior to getting sick, I was not the nervous type. And I had never had a stomach problem before. Then they said it was a milk allergy and I should cut out all dairy products. Of course, never telling me to take vitamin D supplements or calcium supplements if I did that. Cutting out the dairy did not fix it. It took years for that to get better on its own. Now, what brings it back on me seems to be wheat. If I cut out breads and most wheat things, I don't have stomach problems. Soons as I start up with pizza or other bread based things, bang, I get the IBS symptoms back.
  8. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    That is a big, big study I think......micro-inflammation effecting the nervous system... a 'clean' gut is not clean anymore....(that's what they thought_ and this just cytokines irritating the gut lining; this is the gut lining releasing substances that irritates the nerves under the lining of gut....a whole new look at IBS.....

    this is what happens as the technology progresses -the default theory for mysterious disorders (its all in your head) gets exposed....

    Will problems with the problems with the micro-blood vessels be demonstrated next?

    Love to see this! Glad you dug it up! Thanks...

    My gut has only gotten more sensitive over time....first it was dairy, then chocolate, banana's, fruits, sweet things, beans......Dr. Maes says he sees increased gut sensitivity over time in people with ME/CFS quite a bit.
  9. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    I wonder if something similar is happening with MCS...small amounts of chemicals are irritating the nerves
  10. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Some more news on IBS- probably nothing new to many people here - but its great to see researcher prove this....you don't have to have celiac disease to get wiped out by wheat....Hopefully this will pave the way for more research into non-celiac disruptions in the gut..Note that they have no idea what could be happening. Notice they are looking for evidence of immune activation...but what if its something like the article above? What if it's nervous system activation.........they miss it...

  11. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Here - they looked for cytokines....and just didn't find them....which is not dissimilar to CFS...sometimes they find them and sometimes they don't but they don't find the kind of upregulation I think they expect to find....

    Its something else.....I love those nervous system findings!

  12. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Don't feel alone about the early childhood abuse studies in CFS....they've done the same thing in fibromyalgia and IBS, believe it or not...Notice that 50% did not experience abuse and those that did were worse off.

  13. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    New placebo-controlled trial shows antibiotic reduces ibs symptoms

    More evidence that IBS is not all in the mind, here from the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, Jan 2011.

    Rifaximin Therapy for Patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome without Constipation

    Incidentally, Peter White also provided some relevant evidence, showing that gastroenteritis is a risk factor for IBS but not CFS (which he cited in his Splitters vs Lumpers debate with Simon Wessely).

    All in all, it looks like the somatisation model of IBS is falling apart.
  14. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    One caveat to this discussion. "IBS not all in the mind" implies some of it is. But that claim is untenable, based on the usual discrepancies in psychogenic explanations. The phrase "all in the mind" gets over-used, so that people don't even realise that saying something is "not all in the mind" means something is being described as at least partly "in the mind".

    This sort of sleight of hand goes on all the time in ME/CFS, and even the charities have allowed that to propagate.
  15. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    I have no problem with some role for psychological factors in illness. Various forms of heart disease are the classic example where personality traits and states have a significant impact on, for example, the risk of subsequent heart attacks - but no one seems to mind that in the least; maybe because if you die of heart failure there is a pretty clear physical cause. Charles Shepard of the M.E Association made an interesting and relevant point about the slide from mind-and-body to just mind with ME: CBT, he agreed, was used as a helpful therapy a range of physical illnesses including cancer, but ME was the only illness where it was promoted as treating the underlying cause.
  16. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    Well I agree about the special pleading with regard to ME/CFS. However, the claims that 'personality traits and states have a significant impact on, for example, the risk of subsequent heart attacks' are actually very unsafe for many reasons around the instabilities of diagnosing 'personality traits', weak correlations etc. etc. Indeed this is the case for many illnesses where 'personality traits' are alleged to cause or perpetuate them.
  17. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    Actuall- this points the the problem that there are TWO rationales for CBT - one is as a therapy to help cope with illness, the second is the belief the person is wrong-headed in believing they have a physcial illness. This is discussed in Carruthers et al, for example.

    Two completely different approaches. The first is not claiming 'mind OVER body' interaction. The second is. Impact of illness is different to claiming psychogenic causation or perpetuation.
  18. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    Actually, I wasn't aware that the science linking stress with illness in general was in any doubt. We're getting way off topic but here, for example, is one study where they measured psychological factors before inoculating with the common cold and found that stress was a risk factor for getting a cold. With a prospective design like this there is less danger of confounding factors giving false results.
  19. Angela Kennedy

    Angela Kennedy *****

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    Actually, there were various confounding problems in the 'cold and stress' research: Defining 'stress', for one thing... Defining 'cold' was another. That the scientists don't mention these don't mean these problems are not present.

    Yes. The claims of 'stress' causing illness IS problematic, and is criticised.

    AND- this is SO NOT 'off topic'!

    Just one example of various critiques of claims around stress and health is this:

    Jones, F. Bright, J. Stress : myth, theory and research (2001) Pearson Education, Harlow.

    This book contains various critiques, but is not exhaustive.
  20. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Firstly, can this thread be moved to:
    I don't want this sub-forum to get overrun with non-ME/CFS threads. I've given up asking for threads to be moved in the nuts and bolts section.

    Thanks to everyone for interesting posts.

    I'm afraid this didn't convince me that Childhood Abuse or Neglect caused a specific illness or a worse illness.
    IBS, I think is a particularly problematic condition is this regard. Let me first say that I know something physically go wrong (I have had IBS-D but it's much more under control now).

    However, so much about IBS is subjective in terms of severity. Some people can focus more on abdominal pain more than others. If there were objective differences it would be more interesting.

    This reminds me of when I read that hypnotherapy could effectively treat IBS. I looked it up: what they found was that hypnotherapy could reduced the pain. Saying hypnotherapy can effectively treat IBS makes out that it was having some sort of physical effect; saying it can treat pain may mean that the person may focus less on the bowel, be able to cope with more pain to report the same "level"/similar.

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