1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Never Ask Us if We're Hungry -- The Answer's Always No
There are three of us here and for many years, none of us ever got hungry. When our brains would turn to mush, when our faces would go numb, and we would start the invisible vibration which is the signature dance of ME/CFS, we knew we needed to eat.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

I think Earthing cured my dysautonomia/POTS

Discussion in 'Autonomic, Cardiovascular, and Respiratory' started by ask2266, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,624
    Likes:
    2,388
    SOC
    My Bachelor's degree was in mathematical physics, so I think I should be capable of understanding the concept of stripping off the insulation from a cable in order to get an electrical connection!

    In terms of replication of data, why don't you simply become your own test subject for earthing? I find it strange when people offer skeptical opinions, but for some reason, decline from actually performing any testing. Three days ago I would not have thought earthing could have anything but the most negligible effects. Nevertheless, even though I was a little skeptical, my first action was to test earthing empirically myself, since it is so easy to do.

    After the very first night of sleeping earthed, it became immediately obvious to me that there are significant effects involved. Though others on this thread have tried earthing and experienced nothing, so these effects are apparently not universal.

    I am myself looking for explanations in terms of physics and biochemistry, and I don't yet have any answers or theories. But I do know without doubt that earthing has a potent effect, because I experienced this effect first hand.

    If you try yourself, one of two things will result: either you experience these same potent effects, in which case your doubts will disappear; or you will be one of the people who experience nothing, in which case you will probably remain skeptical.

    I cannot yet say whether the effects of earthing are going to be of benefit; that remains to be seen; I have just started experimenting. For all I know, earthing may have negative health effects. But from my experiences, that earthing has an effect is not in any doubt.
    garcia, taniaaust1, Asklipia and 4 others like this.
  2. ask2266

    ask2266

    Messages:
    29
    Likes:
    51
    Atlanta, GA
    Bioelectricity is a new field (excuse the pun) about which we know very little. I have been in touch with a professor of bioelectricity at Duke, and he said that there aren't even any introductory textbooks on it yet. Therefore, I choose to experiment on the unknown rather than assume I know something. All great scientists stay open minded until there is data refuting a position.
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,297
    Likes:
    1,685
    London
    It may be a new field in academic terms but it did have a moment of being fashionable in the late 80's and early 90's. From that period I wasn't helped and none of the other "classic" (i.e. before the term CFS was invented) patients were helped then. The engineer working with it at the time was disappointed. He may have been able to help a subgroup of something though (I just don't know if it will ever have any relevance to "classic ME" or a viral CFS or maybe "just" an ideopathic CF?)

    Would be great if this had moved on and developed to be able to be used to treat one group of patients with something so will watch for any evidence.
  4. ask2266

    ask2266

    Messages:
    29
    Likes:
    51
    Atlanta, GA
    I don't know what benefit earthing is to CFIDS beyond the potential to relieve adrenal fatigue and dysautonomia symptoms. Certainly, the thinning of the blood would help with pathogen destruction. Still, I believe that CFIDS is mostly infectious, and earthing doesn't kill anything on its own.

    It's certainly not a cure-all. I ate gluten a few days ago and had some mussels last night (rich in iodine) and exploded in dermatitis herpeteformis this morning.
  5. ask2266

    ask2266

    Messages:
    29
    Likes:
    51
    Atlanta, GA
    ukxmrv Where were they working with it? Nevada? Were you involved in the treatment group, and if so, what did it involve?

    Now, I'm really curious.
  6. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,297
    Likes:
    1,685
    London
    This was through a retired Engineer in London. He developed his own devices for earthing and approached my ME support group. He claimed that family members had been cured. However, these were not PWME or an acute viral onset. From memory it was fatigue and a whole lot of other symptoms.

    Not sure where this led to in the end if anything and if he took the idea further after working with our group. It was such a long time ago. The devices he was working on and selling (and these may be separate things as he may have been selling ones developed by other companies as well) had company badges and other things on them.

    Sorry it was too long ago to remember his name and the name on the devices.

    Another company though, began to sell the earthing for beds (as sheets) as a person who belonged to another London support group began to sell them in the 90's.
  7. ABC

    ABC

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    9
    Not trying to upset anyone but if you look at those pubmed articles you have quoted, they are written by the same people who sell the earthing products. Also, somehow the idea of having a metallic cable around my ankle tied to a metal rod stuck in the ground reminds me of how the slaves were treated some years back - not at all appealing. Fwiw - Physics major here and Bioelectricity has been around for quite a while. Also, I live by the beach and spend quite a bit of time barefoot. Haven't had an epiphany - maybe not yet...
    SOC and jeffrez like this.
  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Likes:
    620
    NY
    Search pubmed for "placebo effect." You'll probably find a lot of even more relevant articles. :D
    SOC and ABC like this.
  9. wdb

    wdb Admin

    Messages:
    803
    Likes:
    551
    London
    I'd argue because people who are of a skeptical nature know well that a totally unblinded uncontrolled trial with a single participant is not going to be able to differentiate effect from placebo/bias nor produce any statistically significant results.
    SOC likes this.
  10. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes:
    3,438
    Ontario, Canada
    I always like to look at the science.

    The problem I have with 'Earthing' is that those who sell related products claim that they can 'cure' internal diseases/conditions. Isn't the human body somewhat like a Faraday cage so that any ambient naturally occurring electrons would show up only on the outside of the body. In other words, our skin either has an excess or deficiency of electrons depending on the ambient environment and grounding will neutralize those external electrons. (This could be a very poor explanation as I have little knowledge related to this) :eek:

    I remember going to the Science Centre in Toronto and having a chance to put my hand on a Van de Graff generator. You stand on an insulated surface and the generator produces enough static electricity that it makes your hair stand on end. There is no effect on the internal physiology. I guess my point is that with 'Earthing' the only effect would be changing the flux of ions to the skin from the atmosphere. So I am quite perplexed to how Earthing can have an effect on the internal body because when you ground yourself you are neutralizing the external body.

    I haven't read any of the science regarding this, does it address the insulatory properties of the human skin? How does neutralizing external electrical charge translate into having an effect on the internal state of the body?
  11. ask2266

    ask2266

    Messages:
    29
    Likes:
    51
    Atlanta, GA
    The human body is an excellent conductor because it has so much salt water in it. That's how people get electrocuted. For example, if you are holding two conductors, and electricity flows through one conductor, it will cross through you and continue flowing into the other conductor you are holding. That's why people cannot let go of something they are holding when being shocked if a current is running through it and them. Electrocution does internal damage to bone and tissue because of this.
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  12. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    589
    Likes:
    439
    I have tried earthing with my feet on an earthing pad while writing (not on a computer). I did not like the effect, which I felt was more inflammation from the first day. So in my view, certainly something is happening.
    It could be well related to the death of pathogens, but as to an effect on thinning the blood, it was not similar to the blood thinning effect I got with red LED.
    It was more like the feeling I had using a Japanese TENS machine. Which I stopped using when I felt it was giving me blurry vision.
    The TENS/earthing effect did not give me the "boiling blood" effect I get with hyper oxygenation achieved with the red LED or with breathing techniques. Certainly this hyper oxygenation fluidifies and blood and lymph. I suspect that the thickening of both blood and of lymph is a consequence of vitamin K problems. A lot has been published on the role of vitamin K on blood thickness regulation (both ways) but I did not find anything on its role on lymph thickness regulation, which I feel is similar.

    Because I have critical problems with my eyes, I have stayed away from earthing. I have had some interesting results with the red LED though : http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/led-red-intranasal-light-therapy.24195/
    Good luck! This is all extremely interesting.
    Asklipia
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  13. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes:
    3,438
    Ontario, Canada

    But grounding doesn't involve that kind of thing. We aren't talking about electrocution, we are discussing grounding. Does it involve the internal body is what I was asking. From what I can see it doesn't. I understand how electricity can travel through the body; after all this is the way we shock the heart back into rhythm but it's a whole different mechanisms and involves applying a large amount of electricity not neutralizing static electricity.
    ABC, madietodd and jeffrez like this.
  14. ask2266

    ask2266

    Messages:
    29
    Likes:
    51
    Atlanta, GA
    I wish I knew a quick answer off the top of my head as to how it works. I am in the process of researching to try and understand it myself. There are many people who have had similar experiences to mine, so I don't think it's placebo effect. Amazon.com has lots of reviews, and the book has many testimonials. The earth has a several hundred volt negative charge, so I don't understand why we would not receive a flow of electrons from the earth if we were barefoot. The skin may be an insulator, but we have eyes, mouths and other orifices that all contain water.
  15. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes:
    3,438
    Ontario, Canada
    Again you are talking about the active conduction of electricity into the body versus neutralization which is what Earthing is. My question is does Earthing have an effect on the internal body and if so how? We manage to maintain an electrical homeostasis within our body chemically by the constant exchange of positive and negative charges. Our bodies are an amazing bit of machinery in that respect as it constantly works to keep this homeostasis. If you shock the body with a certain amount of electricity it can disrupt this constant exchange and this can cause catastrophic effects. I guess I really am at a loss to understand how grounding could possibly have an effect on POTS/dysautonomia because I don't really see how grounding can have an effect on the internal body at all. And if it does, then by what mechamism does it work to cure these things? I do believe that some people are extremely sensitive to electrical activity in the environment and I can see how grounding might have an effect but I am very skeptical TBH when it comes to the curing of serious conditions.
    SOC and ABC like this.
  16. ABC

    ABC

    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    9
    The one thing that needs to be pointed is that POTS is a syndrome not a disease per say. It's a collection of symptoms. There are many, many underlying causes for the symptoms each of us are experiencing - too many for anyone to list - from hypovolemia, to damage to the nerves, NET transporter deficiency, autoimmune disorders, cardiac atrophy and so on and so forth. I really have a hard time believing that there is such thing as a one size fits all cure for this, but to each their own. You won't see me with an anklet tied to a metal stake stuck in the ground, and I'm definitely not going to "invest" in any of the Earthing products on the market.
    Physics 101 now:
    - there is a teeny tiny bit of a difference between static electricity and alternative current,
    - I didn't know that human skin is an insulator :confused:
    - we can't let go of a live wire (if we touch one by mistake) because our muscles contract, not because of the flow of electricity. Ask any electrician; the old school ones touch wires with the back of their hand and if there's electricity running through, it will actually throw you back!
    - grounding = removing the excess charge on an object by transferring electrons between it and another object of much bigger size (I.e. the Earth)
    - electrical charge (be it the charge of the Earth or any other object) is measured in Coulombs, the Volt is a measurement unit for electrical potential (totally different entities).
    SOC likes this.
  17. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,182
    Likes:
    1,249
    Ashland, Oregon
    ABC, I totally agree with your perspectives about "one size fits all". --- Regarding physics, I watched a PBS program recently about dark matter. Didn't physics 101 "yesterday" say with a great deal of certainty that various solar bodies rotate around larger solar bodies because of gravity? --- From that program, I got the impression that Physics 101 now says that that formerly immutable law is not as immutable as once thought ... From Wikipedia:

    With complex health issues such as we're dealing with, stories such as ask2266's experience with earthing often carry as much or more weight for me than pure science as we "understand" it today. I myself have gotten a great deal of benefit from using an earthing pad underneath my laptop. I've also gotten less noticeable, but positive, results from using an earthing sheet. --- There's just so much we don't know.
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,624
    Likes:
    2,388
    Well, if all the people who are commenting on thread simply tested earthing when they sleep tonight, and shared their findings tomorrow, we would already have an informal study of 12 people.

    Out of the four people on this thread who have tried earthing during sleep, three of those people experienced strong, unequivocal effects; and one experienced nothing. So we already have the feedback of 4 people.

    I would be interested to hear the observations of those actually testing what it is like to sleep earthed.

    With the exception of ABC, of course, whose finds that "the idea of having a metallic cable around my ankle tied to a metal rod stuck in the ground reminds me of how the slaves were treated some years back" (to quote ABC). That is a very odd statement if ever I heard one.
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,624
    Likes:
    2,388
    ask2266
    One question I'd like to ask is whether you performed any simple home equivalent of the POTS tilt table test before and after the improvements you got from earthing. If so, do you still have the figures of these tests?

    As you know, POTS is diagnosed when a patient has a rise in heart rate of 30 beats per minute (bpm) or more when they go from a horizontal position on the tilt table, to a vertical position.

    The home equivalent of the tilt table test is easily performed as follows: lie down completely flat and relax on a couch or a bed for 10 minutes (you can do this while watching TV if you like, as long as you remain horizontal). After 10 minutes measure you heart rate. I find it is good to count one's pulse over a 1 minute interval to get you heart rate, as this gives an accurate as well as an averaged heart rate. Though you can also use a blood pressure meter to measure heart rate, or similar.

    Then after these 10 minutes lying down, stand up straight, and remain in that position. Wait for around 90 seconds, and then measure you heart rate again while standing. Then while remaining standing, wait another 2 or 3 minutes, and measure you heart rate once again.

    If the difference in lying to standing heart rate goes as high as 30 bpm or more, then you have POTS.

    But if your POTS symptoms have been cured or significantly improved, you would see a difference of much less than 30.

    I just wondered if you have performed this home equivalent of the tilt table test, and what your results were.
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,624
    Likes:
    2,388
    One idea I had about how earthing might possibly affect the internal body is the following:

    Whenever the heart beats, you get an electric potential of a few millivolts across the heart. This electric potential is of course what electrocardiograms detect. This potential difference across the heart will naturally set up up an electric field, plus some current flow in the body. Now, I wonder what earthing the body might do this electric field and the current flow. You'd need some sort of mathematical model to predict the effects of earthing on this heart electrophysiology (assuming there are any effects); but I'd hazard a guess that there will be some effect.

    I am not saying this is the answer, but this is just an idea that occurred to me of how earthing might conceivably have some effects on body electrophysiology.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page