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I started a protocol of Methylation - and need an advice!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ygelboa, May 21, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Globalpilot,

    Taking into account what Rich is saying here, I would like to add on to that. A little history might prove enlightening. The folate RDA is an extremely artificial amount having little bearing on what is actually needed. It was deliberately set too low to be fully effective. The fear was that a person would do serious damage to themselves by taking a lot of folate so as to correct macrocytic anemia (ie pernicious anemia) without preventing serious neurological damage from lack of b12. A reasonable less artificially lowered number for RDA might be closer to 3200mcg or so for a desirable dose. The prescription doses vary from about 5mg to 15mg.

    The standard inactive b12 therapy was established in the 1950s and early 60s. Remember that this was in a period when b12 was very expensive, maybe US$10 in 1960 dollars for 1mg. This works out to US$10,000 per gram in 1960 dollars. In 1960 a paperback book and a pack of cigarettes and a gallon of gasoline each cost about US$0.35. Now it's closer to US$4.00 each. That informal inflation rate puts b12 at about US$110,000.00 per gram in present value dollars. For that price you can now buy about 20 kilograms. The whole strategy was to use as little of a rare and expensive substance as possible. Further research put the amount needed extremely low, say 6mcg. At first there was not thought to be any dose proportionality in healing because with the inactive cobalamins, cyanocbl and hydroxcbl, the range is so narrow as to be almost imperceptible. The dose proportionality of cyanocbl and hydroxcbl has been measured to be in the 1-125mcg range, the maximum being the oral amount needed to saturate HTC2. No other form of delivery was researched as no others were considered possible and the active transport system is the only one that works with inactive cobalamins. So a 1mg injection seemed very generous and a single such injection per month could reverse pernicious anemia which, for a long time, was considered the only significant set of b12 deficiency symptoms.

    So now, methylb12 is known to have a much larger dose proportionate effectiveness range. Actually there are two ranges, the body and the central nervous system. The body range appears to be in the area of 1-5000mcg (injected SC, sublingual held 45-120 minutes is more in the area of 1-25,000mcg) daily. The CNS range, from a combination of Japanese research and my own private research with a number of participants indicates the range is from about 30mg (injected SC) to 180mg or more (injected SC) per day. The Japanese have lately been experimenting with IV infusion of 50+mg daily.

    At US$110/mg these larger doses are unaffordable, $20,000 daily, so your feet should fall off as your nervous system breaks down from the inside out. However, at today's prices it is feasible to self finance this kind of research. The "clinical data" of which Rich speaks is not available because the research has never been done because of the biases built into 60 years of research based on inactive cobalamins since, as "everybody knows" b12 has a very low top end of dose proportionality.

    So, with that history in place, and recognizing that what is important is the amount of b12 going into serum, not the nominal size of an oral or sublingual dose, I would say that a dose of about 1-5mg injected SC daily and the equivalent amount sublingual to serum, is fully sufficient for most anybody to heal their body. However, with the difficulty some groups (FMS, CFS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ALS, MS and others) are known to have in getting cobalamin into the cerebral spinal fluid and CNS, a minimum dose of about 6-7.5mg injected SC is needed to penetrate the CSF/CNS. How much is needed for prevention is almost certainly a different story from stopping progressing damage and/or healing damage that is already done.

    "Large" doses are as much a matter of perception and purpose as anything else. 35 grams of b12 seems like a huge dose to me yet it is the standard size dose for saving the life of somebody poisoned with cyanide and is used over and over until all the cyanide is flushed from the body. Obviously this wasn't a dosage used in 1960. 5mg of mb12 can save the life of a bird, much smaller than a human, with avian botulism as it neutralizes the botulism toxin.

    So a several 5mg mb12 sublingual tablets daily can heal a body but leave the brain and cord to continue deteriorating. 30mg a day of mb12 SC can make a start at stopping the brain and cord deterioration and maybe healing it. 180mg a day does even better. What is large here?
  2. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Hi madietodd,
    I've been on a methylation protocol for 2 months and I needed to use activated charcoal frequently in the first few weeks, but for now I've settled back to twice a week. At effective doses it's binding in all senses! (You need to be careful to take it away from other supplements.)
    Rich mentioned magnesium and I wasn't sure how much to use so I checked out an autism bio-med forum I'm a member of and I saw they mentioned charcoal and magnesium flushes using 1/2 tsp magnesium citrate powder in a glass of water taken the same time as 6 charcoal capsules...thats a child's recommended dose. Or they would empty the charcoal into some fruit juice and add the mg citrate to that too. Anyway, I'm taking 12 charcoal caps so I use a whole tsp mg citrate (630mg) and that seems to work well. Milk of magnesia would work at least as well I think.
    Anne.
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Anne - What symproms get you to take the charcoal? And thanks for the formula!

    Madie
  4. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    If I've woken up in the morning feeling really heavy limbed, and kind of toxic/hungover I'll take charcoal that evening. Sometimes I also get a certain type of headache I associate with the burden of detox creeping up on me, and that indicates my need for charcoal too. I always feel better the morning after taking the charcoal. Less "poisoned".

    I found it hard to go without charcoal in the early weeks of this protocol. Things were happening quite fast.

    What the charcoal didn't seem to help with is inflammation which increased a great deal for me initially, but in the past week that has come right back down to a level thats better than where I started.

    HTH
    Anne.
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Anne!

    Well, I'd best go buy some charcoal and milk of magnesia, because I didn't take lemon or juice today, and I'm exhausted, a bit nauseous, and have a little headache already creeping up. I'll take it tonight.

    Thanks!

    Madie
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Anne
    why do you think your inflammation came back down?
    I think inflammation has been a real roadblock for some folks.
  7. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I would agree with anne. I think the charcoal stops the nausea and headaches. It's brilliant like that. I buy it in bulk from some place in denver, colorado.. i think the website is buyactivatedcharcoal.com.. and then just encapsulate it myself. Pretty cheap that way.
    I think I used their acid-washed coconut .. on their advice.. but you can ask them if you decide to go that route.

    I suspect the milk of magnesia sucks out a lot of water.. ie. it's dehydrating. Something to watch.

    Also, I find fredd is right when he says that the lousey feeling the morning after is due to lack of folate and b12...and it can be alleviated by taking both.. you just have to figure out how much to take to feel better without driving detox really hard.

    Also, someone pointed out to me that I was a bit discouraging about this protocol....& I apologise if I came off like that. I just think there's an optimal sequence to this treatments for all of us.. which most of us are still figuring out...and I came to the conclusion that my progress was taxing and slow...and so I decided to stop for a while to treat immune deficiences and viral load and then revisit it later.

    Onwards.
  8. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    aq, I'm really not sure! I can throw a couple of ideas out there though..

    When I eliminated all folic acid is when things started improving inflammation-wise. Although in the first few weeks when inflammation was worst I was responding well to Yasko's Nucleotide Complex which included 400mcg folic acid per day. That definitely seemed to reduce inflammation.
    It may be that restoring methylation capacity is promoting waves of detox rather than a steady trickle and when pathways get overwhelmed I respond with inflammation? I might just be in a sweet spot between waves right now! :)
    Or it could have to do with anti inflammatory effects of probiotics. I think those effects may extend beyond the bowel. I'm taking a lot of probiotics via fermented milks and vegetables right now. I'm also taking some tumeric extract, but I've been taking that since a couple of weeks in.
    I do still have some inflammation, but it's currently a low key sensation that's not causing me any pain. That's a big improvement for me. I hope it lasts!

    Best, Anne.
  9. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Wow. I need to try that. Out of habit I tend to take the bulk of my active B12 and folate a bit later in the day away from other supps (which used to contain folic). I'm going to switch things around a bit and see if I can shake that lousey feeling without resorting to a cup of coffee...:rolleyes:

    I agree with not driving detox too hard.
  10. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I didn't juice yesterday, felt increasingly tired during the day, took the charcoal/magcit last night. Woke up this morning after a relatively good sleep, and am more exhausted than before I started Rich's new protocol, 6 weeks ago. I took the folinic acid-methylB-B12 3 hours ago, as usual. Any thoughts?
  11. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    The relatively good sleep bit sound good! :) Did your headache disappear?

    Do you know if you've eliminated the charcoal?
    If I understand this correctly, according to Dr Klinghardt when toxins are chelated effectively in the bowel the body makes more accumulated toxins ready for elimination. There's a kind of signalling that goes on from the bowel "upwards". I'm guessing but it could be that you've stimulated some extra detox, and the level of discomfort/exhaustion will pass?

    I've always found juicing beneficial personally. I seem to get a boost from the easily absorbed minerals or something. And juice fasting seemed to stimulate a ton of "detox", but perhaps not the kind of metal detox we're needing to make real progress?

    Hope you're feeling less exhausted later. It must be discouraging to feel worse and I hope it passes soon!

    HTH
    Anne.
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Anne -

    I haven't eliminated anything (since mid-yesterday), which is a big change from when I'm juicing. I've taken an extra magnesium yesterday and today, which hasn't helped so far. I had an almost-headache when I woke up, but it went away quickly, and after lying around all afternoon, I'm feeling better. I won't take anything tonight.

    Thanks for your support...........Madie
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Anne,

    A rapid increase of inflammation was a common occurrence with paradoxical folate deficiency and with glutathione induced folate deficiency. Removing folic acid is a tip-off. Glad you are doing well.

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