I have Thiamine Deficiency

[dbkita]

benfotiamine is for the periphery, allithiamine for the CNS

 

[dbkita]

I have had these symptoms too (well the ataxia, which I had for maybe 5 years) and thought them to be due to thiamine deficiency. Other things besides tea, but also blueberries can destroy thiamine. Thiamine does not stay in your blood 24 hours, which is one of the reasons for taking your B complex 2x/day. (Those who have done so says taking that second B complex really raised their energy levels). I tried benfotiamine, which fyi, also protects your kidneys from glycation. I was not motivated to continue. My ataxia is gone. In retrospect I think it was from insufficient dopamine (also causes spastic movement) and my doctor put me on 1g tyrosine/day. I actually take 1-3g/day depending on how much protein I eat that day. I also take Thorne Basic B, often 2x/day, but I am no saint and that 2nd dose does not always happen. tyrosine is required to make dopamine, thyroxine, and one of the adrenal hormones.

If you are seeing demonstrable improvement taking tyrosine and increasing your dopamine then you do not have a BH4 deficit imo.Tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate limiting step for making dopamine and requires B3, iron, tyrosine and BH4. People who have low levels of BH4 would usually not benefit from the tyrosine and would in fact be at risk for higher levels of phenylalanine if they have low BH4 and supplemented either phenylalanine or tyrosine. So good news

 

[xjhuez]

benfotiamine is for the periphery, allithiamine for the CNS

Ah, they play different roles. So both, to cover all the bases?

 

[xjhuez]

I'm suggesting you purchase all the b vitamins individually, instead of in a complex, and experiment. Consider co-enzymated forms, but don't take the source naturals...because it is complexed. As for the question of taking them separately or combining them, there are some b vitamins that should be taken separately to avoid competitive inhibition of absorption. I am not totally sure about all the potential absorption issues or how significant the inhibition is, but here are some that I can recall:

B1 inhibits B3 absorption
Biotin inhibits B5 absorption

I think B1 can be taken with B2, and I certainly don't see any contraindication for taking B9 with B12.

I will let others chime in on this subject, but like others, I found that B2 has obvious absorption/competition issues when combined in a complex.

Good to know. If I start B1 I'll have to make sure I take it away from niacinamide.

I can't take the B multi anyway, as some component of it makes me feel ill. Likely the folate, possibly the inositol.

 

[xjhuez]

Has anyone heard of a histamine response to B1 allithiamine? Two days straight of dry, itchy eyes, runny nose, sneezing, etc shortly after taking it. Ecological Formulas product - also contains calcium and phosphorus. Could be coincidence, but doesn't seem like it.. very weird.

 

[jeffrez]

Has anyone hear of a histamine response to B1 allithiamine? Two days straight of dry, itchy eyes, runny nose, sneezing, etc shortly after taking it. Ecological Formulas product - also contains calcium and phosphorus. Could be coincidence, but doesn't seem like it.. very weird.

It's a disulfide. Allergic reactions are probably not uncommon, especially in those who are sulfur-sensitive. Another reason to prefer benfo.

 

[xjhuez]

It's a disulfide. Allergic reactions are probably not uncommon, especially in those who are sulfur-sensitive. Another reason to prefer benfo.

Ah. Sulfur isn't something I've focused on, but I do have ammonia issues due to CBS, so it makes sense.

Thanks.

 

[dbkita]

First, the amount of sulfur in the allithiamine would have almost zero impact on the ammonia. I assume you are taking less than 100 mg, if so the impact on CBS flux would be like eating 10 grams of cashews or 1/3 of one usual serving. I would bet that there is no impact on ammonia that is relevant. And besides the symptoms of increased ammonia are not those of allergies anyways.

Second, people keep confusing the CBS gene with sulfur sensitivity. They are almost always NOT the same thing. Just like allergies to a sulfa drug has basically zero to do with a CBS mutation. Sulfur sensitivity is often more related to the phenol sulfur transferase issues is I remember right. People need to be careful about tying everything to their genes. An allergic reaction which is certainly possible is about a person's immune system and has virtually zilch to do with their genotype.

Third, benfotiamine and allthiamine are very similar structurally. You can google their chemical structures on the wikipedia. Benfotiamine is a sulfide while allithiamine is a disulfide. The latter is to allow BBB penetration. Benfotiamine has an extra PO3 group as well.

Playing devil's advocate is it possible the formulation has wheat, soy, corn, dairy or something else that you are allergic to? I have to be meticulous about what brands of anything I use due to my Celiac's and my allergies. Then again, don't get me wrong I am NOT suggesting you take something that makes you feel ill. Bad idea.

Also sulfur sensitivity is its own very important issue but for that you need to look broader at the many supplement and foods that have sulfur and decide how they impact you. Remember the CBS homozygous mutation is at best a 10-15% or so increase in trans-sulfuration flux relative to a person with a wild type CBS enzyme under the same loading conditions of methionine and cysteine. The Yasko 10x upregulation is a myth. And while free thiols can be a problem, the tie is not normally due to the CBS pathway based simply on amounts. Their are many reaction pathways including the aforementioned phenol sulfur transferases that involve sulfur.

edit: Again to be clear what you describe really sounds like an allergic reaction.

 

[xjhuez]

What I wrote was unclear - I didn't think the allithiamine was impacting ammonia, I was merely suggesting that my ammonia issue indicates CBS expression and thus sulfur might be an problem. Regardless, I was wrong about how said problem would manifest itself, so I appreciate you clearing that up.

I react to most supplements in one way or another, but itchy face is a first.

 

[Whit]

Is it ok to take multiple forms of Thiamine? The HCL in a B Complex and also some of the other ones listed here seperately?

 

[adreno]

benfotiamine is for the periphery, allithiamine for the CNS

It seems there is some conflicting evidence on this. The following studies would certainly suggest that benfotiamine enters the CNS:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385653
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22961478

 

[adreno]

Is it ok to take multiple forms of Thiamine? The HCL in a B Complex and also some of the other ones listed here seperately?

I see no reason why this wouldn't be ok.

 

[consuegra]

http://cfspatientadvocate.blogspot.com/2011/07/thiamine.html

Westlake lab makes the best oral thiamine as well as the following thiamine cream product

http://westlake-labs.com/products/authia-cream

Chris

 

[tango]

Anyone used sulbutiamine? its a form of vit b1 indicated for asthenia/chronic fatigue.
Sulbutiamine (brand name: Arcalion) is a synthetic derivative of thiamine (vitamin B1). As a dimer of two modified thiamine molecules, it is a lipophilic compound that crosses the blood-brain barrier more readily than thiamine and increases the levels of thiamine and thiamine phosphate esters in the brain.[1] Sulbutiamine was discovered in Japan in an effort to develop more useful thiamine derivatives since it was hoped that increasing the lipophilicity of thiamine would result in better pharmacokinetic properties.[2]

Asthenia
Sulbutiamine is indicated for the treatment of asthenia. Asthenia is a condition of chronic fatigue that is cerebral rather than neuromuscular in origin.[11] Several studies have shown that sulbutiamine is effective at relieving the symptoms of asthenia. In a study of 1772 patients with an infectious disease and asthenic symptoms, sulbutiamine was administered in addition to specific anti-infective treatment for 15 days.[12] The number of patients with complete resolution of all asthenic symptoms was 916. Another study showed that sulbutiamine is effective at relieving asthenia in patients after mild craniocerebral trauma.[13] Nevertheless, the clinical efficacy of sulbutiamine is uncertain. In a study of postinfectious chronic fatigue patients, sulbutiamine did not demonstrate sustained benefits over the placebo, which raises doubts about its clinical efficacy.[3] However, the authors of that study suggest that additional research is needed to evalulate the potential usefulness of sulbutiamine in the treatment of chronic fatigue.
[edit] Memory

Several studies have shown that sulbutiamine improves memory through the potentiation of cholinergic, dopaminergic, and glutamatergic transmission. When sulbutiamine is administered to mice, they perform better on operant conditioning tests[14] and object recognition tests.[15] Sulbutiamine also reduces the amnesiac effects of dizocilpine and improves memory in schizophrenics.[15] More recently, sulbutiamine has been shown to improve everyday activities in patients suffering from early-stage and moderate Alzheimer's disease when used in conjunction with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.[16] In a randomized double-blind study of Alzheimer's disease patients, the combination of sulbutiamine and donepezil improved episodic memory and daylife activities better than the combination of donepezil and a placebo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulbutiamine

I tried it and found it overstimulating.

I could NOT sleep