Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

I have an unusual bacteria in my blood

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Cheesus, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    Recently I performed some infectious disease testing using shotgun metagenomics. The idea is you sequence the DNA of everything in the sample then remove the human stuff and see what is left. It is a hypothesis free method of testing for pathogens, but it also creates a load of data that is not necessarily useful.

    Amongst the many types of bacteria that was found in my blood, one stands out as particularly unusual:
    Desemzia incerta. There is not a lot of information about it, but it was first isolated from an insect (the ovary of a cicada, no less). I cannot find any evidence that it has ever been isolated in a human sample before.

    What do you guys think of that? On one hand, there are weird bacteria all over the place so this might have no significance whatsoever. On the other, I was wondering if I might find a vector borne infection, and here we have a bacteria associated with cicada ovaries (I don't remember ever having dealings with a cicada ovary, if that is what you're thinking).

    Does anyone have any thoughts?
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,097
    Likes:
    13,876
    Except in cases of bacteremia, shouldn't the blood be largely free of bacteria?
     
  3. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
  4. erin

    erin Senior Member

    Messages:
    739
    Likes:
    2,054
    So strange. Never heard of such test and ovary of an insect can be in human blood. Where did you get this test done? I sit private? What exactly it is called?

    Sorry, maybe asking too much. Ignore me if you don't want to answer.
     
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

    Messages:
    14,283
    Likes:
    45,795
    That it's found in the ovaries of the cicada does sound similar to another bacteria, midichloria mitochondrii, being found in the ovaries of ticks. In the case of midichloria, it inhabits and consumes the mitochondria of the host.
     
    ScottTriGuy, Richard7, Hutan and 4 others like this.
  6. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    I had the test done at a lab called Aperiomics. If you google "shotgun metagenomics for infectious disease discovery" you will come across a lot of articles on the subject.

    And it is a bacteria from the ovary, not the ovary itself! :D

    What a strange yet interesting piece of information. Why on earth do you know that?
     
    ScottTriGuy, MEMum, Richard7 and 4 others like this.
  7. erin

    erin Senior Member

    Messages:
    739
    Likes:
    2,054
    Thank you for the answer.
    And about the ovary explanation :confused:
     
    merylg and Cheesus like this.
  8. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

    Messages:
    14,283
    Likes:
    45,795
    A university in Germany offers a test for it, and one of KDM's patients tested positive for it. I and others were also tested, but came back negative.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,097
    Likes:
    13,876
    Are you sure "thriving" is the right word? I can imagine how the odd bacterium or two translocates into the blood from bacteria-filled places such as the gums, intestines, kidneys (if you have a recurrent upper UTI), and that these might be picked up by molecular methods of pathogen detection.

    But does that equate to a "thriving" microbiome?


    What kind of viral infections were found in your blood, by the way?

    Incidentally, Dr Lipkin told me that high throughput sequencing of the blood will not detect the chronic enterovirus infections known to exist in ME/CFS patients, as you don't find much enterovirus in the blood in chronic infections; this virus is found only in the tissues (eg muscle tissues or gut tissues) in chronic infections.

    So I don't think shotgun metagenomics of the blood will be able to tell you which enterovirus infections you have.
     
    merylg likes this.
  10. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes:
    3,376
    It's too bad there's not yet metagenomics for tissue
     
    Cheesus likes this.
  11. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    @Hip

    You're right, thriving was probably not the right word. Though that first article i linked you to does seem to suggest that the blood microbiome may be integral to human health, so it might be more than simple translocation.

    I didn't find any viruses in my blood. I found HHV 1 in my nasopharyngeal swab, but other than that I don't have any viruses to report. The test I ran was DNA, so I wouldn't capture any RNA viruses anyway. My main goal was to look for bacteria, because my ME was triggered when I took an antibiotic. It has always been my suspicion that I upset a harmony between various microbes.

    I have attached my test results in case anyone is interested. The test only reported microbes with a relative abundance greater than 1%, but they have said that they can include microbes < 1% if I wish.
     

    Attached Files:

    Hutan, ljimbo423, Valentijn and 2 others like this.
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,097
    Likes:
    13,876
    It's possible that the people offering shotgun metagenomics might be able to process a tissue sample; one would have to write to them and ask; but getting such a sample is more difficult. The early enterovirus ME/CFS researchers often used to use muscle tissue biopsies to detect enterovirus, but these are invasive, painful and leave a scar. I believe that's one of the reasons Dr Chia pioneered stomach tissues biopsies, as these are actually easier to obtain, and are not painful.



    I wonder if that is normal for shotgun metagenomics, to only pick up so little viruses? Most of us will have HHV-6, EBV, perhaps cytomegalovirus and dozens of other viruses in our body.
     
  13. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes:
    3,376
    This is fascinating technology and I'm glad you did this Cheesus

    My question is what this can determine diagnostically and treatment even if it's tissue

    If we discover enteroviruses plus herpes viruses in our gut then what does this tell us about pathological etiology. This is something I've wondered about Chia's research. Perhaps an altered immune system or metabolism allows for higher levels of the virus as a secondary effect

    I suppose if a new retrovirus was found at much higher levels that would be significant

    Did they give you an option to look at RNA viruses as well?
     
  14. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,107
    Likes:
    23,268
    USA
    I wasn't thinking that but thank you for setting the record straight @Cheesus ;)... (am just teasing you :p). But it is fascinating and I am hoping the sciency people in this group will help you to figure it out.
     
    MEMum and Cheesus like this.
  15. NotThisGuy

    NotThisGuy Senior Member

    Messages:
    198
    Likes:
    193
    Germany
    Could you maybe tell me which university it is? Sounds very interesting.
     
  16. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    I have an appointment to speak with the lab about the results, so I will ask them this.

    Yes, you can do RNA sequencing, but it is a separate test and is quite a lot more expensive (it was already very expensive).
     
    Valentijn and Jesse2233 like this.
  17. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes:
    3,180
    Can you be sure there was no contamination?
     
    TrixieStix likes this.
  18. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    Nope.
     
  19. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,058
    Likes:
    3,166
    I was diagnosed with this tick-borne infection. Actually, the blood sample was analyzed at the University hospital in Liege in Belgium. KDM ordered it for me. You may PM me if you´d like to know more as this is a bit off topic.
     
    Valentijn and MEMum like this.
  20. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    I'm still interested. Have you successfully treated it? Did you benefit from treatment?
     
    Hutan and MEMum like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page