The Real ME: A Stock Photography Resource for the Media
We’ve all seen them in the news stories about ME/CFS: the guy in a suit at the office, yawning; the beautiful woman sitting at her desk with her immaculate make-up and elegantly coiffed hair, hand to her head and looking slightly pained.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

I have a question, please ( Cd4/ Cd8 ratio)

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by funkyqueen, Dec 29, 2015.

?

For those who have already measuring their CD4 / CD8 ratio, how was it, please?

  1. increased

    9 vote(s)
    47.4%
  2. normal

    7 vote(s)
    36.8%
  3. too low

    3 vote(s)
    15.8%
  4. I measure it several times, and the results vary (thank you to specify in comments)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. funkyqueen

    funkyqueen Senior Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes:
    252
    South of France
    In my case, several times, always too hight...
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
    Mel9 likes this.
  2. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,321
    Likes:
    5,429
    My ratio was low; CD4 was normal but CD8 was elevated.
     
    funkyqueen likes this.
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes:
    8,227
    australia (brisbane)
    Ratio mostly been normal but cd4 and cd8 numbers always elevated. Most of my cd subsets are elevated.
     
    funkyqueen likes this.
  4. morse27

    morse27 Senior Member

    Messages:
    122
    Likes:
    152
    NORTH of FRANCE
    Ratio CD4/CD8 high
    CD4 , CD8 and CD52 are always elevated
    this balance CD4/CD8 is common in many auto immune diseases, not only in ME/CFS Illness
    its normal in gulf war illness sufferers with high level NK lymph of inate immune system (difference with ME/CFS : low NK cell level)
     
    Mel9 likes this.
  5. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,034
    CD4, CD8 etc. below normal range, except for NK numbers (not function) at normal range. Ratio increased.
     
    funkyqueen and heapsreal like this.
  6. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,321
    Likes:
    5,429
    There has not been consistent findings on CD4/CD8 ratio in CFS research. Dedra Buchwald found increased ratio in one study, but the majority of studies actually found decreased ratio, including one where 100% of the patients were decreased.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
    EMilo and nandixon like this.
  7. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,981
    Likes:
    27,549
    USA
    My CD4 and CD8 were both normal but I am not sure how to figure out the ratio or what this means? I assume I vote "normal" in the poll but do not really understand it!
     
  8. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,466
    Likes:
    19,600
    The CD4/CD8 ratio is a simple calculation, usually provided by the lab. If you have a measure of your absolute CD4 and CD8 counts, simply divide: CD4 divided by CD8. The number you obtain is the ratio.

    Whether this number is relevant and provide more insight, i don't know. also keep in mind that the numbers you got a year, or more ago may not represent what is actually going on today.
    It is a value that can fluctuate throughout the course of the disease, just as CD4 and CD8 fluctuate.
     
  9. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,981
    Likes:
    27,549
    USA
    @Kati Thank you and I looked at the labs more carefully and it does give the CD4/CD8 ratio and I don't know how I missed it! My ratio was normal at 2.09 and the range was from 0.80 to 5.00.
     
    Kati likes this.
  10. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

    Messages:
    5,466
    Likes:
    19,600
    For most of us, we will be within range. HIV patients who have VERY very low CD4 counts wil have a very low ratio, but then the drs would have figured out otherwise that they were indeed very sick.
     
    Gingergrrl likes this.
  11. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    Before ARV treatment :

    immunocompromised very low cd3, immunocompromised very low cd4, immunocompromised very low cd8.


    With ARV treatment :

    immunonormal cd3,
    immunonormal cd4,
    immunonormal cd8
     
    funkyqueen likes this.
  12. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    Elevated normal ?
     
  13. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    And if they have very low CD8 (as well as vrry low CD4) what is the impact on their ratio?
     
  14. funkyqueen

    funkyqueen Senior Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes:
    252
    South of France


    Thanks !

    This study is, in part, responsible for my question :

    Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2015 Nov 28;36(5):439-446. [Epub ahead of print]
    Increased expression of activation antigens on CD8+ T lymphocytes in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome: inverse associations with lowered CD19+ expression and CD4+/CD8+ ratio, but no associations with (auto)immune.
    [No authors listed]

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14535577




    Others interestings studies :
    http://www.me-ireland.com/scientific/1.immune.htm#20


    Extracts from this source :

    "
    Abnormally high or Low CD4/CD8 ratio and other T cell abnormalities

    T-cell helper to T-cell suppressor ratio. Normal ratio for CD4 cell : CD8 cell is 1 : 4. Abnormal ratios suggests immune dysfunction. In ME this depends on :

    (i) the existence of subgroups
    (ii) the progression of the illness over time in phases (Hornig et al. (2013), Dr. Paul Cheney (3 phases of the illness)
    (iii) if the patient is having active infection(s) including opportunistic infections
    (iv) whether he/she is in remission or in relapse. And if they have mild, moderate or severe ME.
    (iv) the patient's genetic weaknesses
    (v) gradual onset ME or rapid onset ? .
    "
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
    EMilo and halcyon like this.
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,897
    Likes:
    8,227
    australia (brisbane)
    If abnormal cd ratio with cfs for greater than 3 years???????
     
  16. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    Important to distinguish between

    COUNT

    RATIO
     
  17. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,321
    Likes:
    5,429
    Mine ratio was low when measured 5 months after onset. Haven't had this test repeated.

    @funkyqueen I saw that, new Maes paper (I'm guessing). Probably deserves its own thread.
     
    funkyqueen likes this.
  18. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    I voted normal for the cd4/8 ratio.

    Normal before arv's and normal after arv's.
    0.1 0.2 0.3 fluctuations very very neglible.

    All cd3,4,8's increased significantly on arv's and proportionally and equally so, hence the cd4/8 ratio itself didn't ever change that much at all as the cd3,4,8 counts all proportionally improved.

    Total white blood cell count (twbcc) was always more or less normal even if sometimes very negligibly/very insignificantly low.
    More chance statistically of sometimes having very negligibly/very insignificantly low twbcc if low cd3,4,8 (as in my case)?

    Some studies exclude you as a patient if actual blood counts are even just a bit low.
     
  19. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    if actual twbcc counts are even just a bit low.
     
  20. Ellkaye

    Ellkaye

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    158
    Does this have anything to do with th1,th2 shifts? I never understood that
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page