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I cannot sleep at all

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by freshveggies, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you all for posting and giving me some suggestions. I just feel so lost. My brain seems to not remember how to sleep anymore and I am feeling hopeless. I have been told 2 x this last month that I need to treat my Lyme. I am going to look into the Cowden protocol since I already tried antiobiotics for 1 1/2 years.
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    You only need to take it till it helps and until sleep is stable (presuming it works). I do not have a definitive time for taking it, but it needs to be taken with meals. I think an evening meal would be best, but thats a guess. You might want to experiment for what is optimal for you.
    dannybex likes this.
  3. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    Thank you. I appreciate that.
  4. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    would magnesium malate be ok for me to take. I guess cheney uses it for ATP? I have been using citrate at lunch and mag chloride spray in afternoon and evening.
  5. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    You might also want to look into getting some EEG neurofeedback if you can. Errant brainwaves, alpha intrusion, and other EEG problems can interfere with sleep. Earlier this month I wasn't falling asleep until 2am, was waking up at 4-4:30, laying awake until 6:30 or 7, and then falling asleep til around 9-9:30. After raising some occipital/parietal alpha waves with neurofeedback, I was restored to sleeping straight through. Now I can't get up before 11, but with further treatments I'll probably be able to adjust that.

    There are brainwave entrainments you can find around the internet and on youtube for balancing frequencies, raising delta, etc. that might also help. Some of them can be activating, though, so definitely don't do any in the evening until you find out what they do to you.
  6. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    did you go to a practicioner? Is there a web site I can look at? or do you just listen to them on youtube? SO many kinds.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  7. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I went to a practitioner and also learned to do it myself. There are a lot of different kinds of entrainments for sure - I'd first look for some that were "sweeps" to balance everything out (total sweep, alpha sweep, etc.), then try anything that purports to raise delta or specifically be for sleep. Balancing or even raising SMR (sensory-motor rhythm) might also be helpful, but of course it's nearly impossible to say without knowing what your brainwaves are doing. In any case, as long as you don't have epilepsy or something like that, since you're not sleeping anyway it's unlikely you would be harmed from it. Just experiment and see if anything seems to help.
  8. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Have you tried adb12 instead of hydroxyb12?

    It looks like you are taking so many things. Have you thought about starting over? Maybe try Freddd's titrate to effect method? Balance out methylfolate, mb12, adb12, l-carnitine, etc....

    You may have a deficiency holding you up somewhere. If you were to start over and add/titrate things one at a time, you may locate the deficiency.
    jeffrez likes this.
  9. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Good post - or if not deficiency, something that's interfering. I would dump ab12 altogether for now along with the acetyl l-carnitine, they can definitely be very activating.

    Also, what is the reason for the iodine? Are you hypothyroid? Iodine can really kick the thyroid, that could be charging you up too much.

    Best approach might be to eliminate everything you possibly can while still functioning, start from a neutral baseline, and then just start adding things that you need one by one, like Red said.

    Also, fwiw, blue blockers increased OCD symptoms in me. So be aware that in some people at least they can perhaps lower serotonin or otherwise alter transmitter balance in a way that might be messing you up.
    penny likes this.
  10. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Which brainwave entrainments are the right ones for sleep? Can you provide more info about this?

    I never sleep deeply and wake up every morning btwn 4-5 am. On the rare occasions when I do sleep, I feel like an almost normal version of my self.
  11. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    thanks. I think I will cut out all and start over. Doctor wants me on 1000 hydroxy, 1000 mb12, lipsomal C, mag chloride oil. I don't think I can get enough magnesium from that. What do you think?
    I just quit iodine. I am deficient in it, but think I can maybe get enough from fish.

    I might just go with a little potassium, C, protiotic, salt, yucca, ox bile, A, D, E, enzyme. magnesium.

    I am not sure about the enzyme. Can that be stimulating?
    I am just starting ox bile. Doc said it is important. 2 other doctors wanted me to take it and I just wasn't sure. Could have helped me.
    I have been taking sodium butyrate for ammonia? any thoughts.
    bentenite clay for toxins and ammonia? any thoughts

    I might try not using the blue blockers for a while.

    what would you all start with if starting over?
  12. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Good point.

    Iodine made me very over-stimulated and caused both cardiac arrhythmias and insomnia. It's the 2nd worst thing I have ever taken, next to hydrocortisone. It took me a year to get my endocrine system back in balance after taking it just 10 days.

    Yes. This sounds like a really good idea.
    merylg likes this.
  13. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Those are really high doses of B12. HAve you done a methylation pathways panel? If you have any methylation blocks, doses that high could trigger detoxification, and that definitely could whack your brain out. Also, you probably want to see if you have a CBS snip and if so, clear that FIRST, before diving into all that B12.

    Regarding magnesium: Back in 2007, Carolyn Dean (MD, ND) wrote a book called The Magnesium Miracle. (She is an expert on that topic.) At that point she found magnesium glycinate to be the best form of magnesium to take. But in a recent paper, she has changed to ANGSTROM MAGNESIUM.... which I have never tried. You can read about it starting on page 20. http://www.utahsportsandwellness.com/pdfs/ChangeMagnesium.pdf

    I am curious if anyone here has taken angstrom minerals, and how they worked for them?

    The rest of the stuff you are taking.... I have no clue about how it would be affecting you.
    jeffrez likes this.
  14. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I think a lot depends on whatever's going on with the individual person, but *in general* delta waves are most associated with sleep. As I understand it, one of the classic patterns of sleep that's dysregulated b/c of EEG abnormalities is what's called "alpha intrusion," where the alpha waves are too active and "intrude" on the delta, disrupting normal sleep. But I'm sure there are all kinds of other different reasons, too, depending on the person and whatever their particular brainwaves are doing, not to mention the zillion and one physiological reasons that could be causing it (apnea, cortisol irregularities, blood sugar issues, etc.)

    Unfortunately, as we get older our sleep gets fucked up anyway because of whatever reasons associated with normal aging - lower serotonin maybe, etc., so maybe most of us are fighting a losing battle to begin with, lol. But perhaps try a delta entrainment and see if it helps. I haven't tried any of these, but here's a youtube search for "brainwave entrainment sleep":

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brainwave entrainment sleep&oq=brainwave entrainment sleep&gs_l=youtube.3..0.4355691.4356018.0.4356304.2.2.0.0.0.0.142.213.1j1.2.0...0.0...1ac.1.D10TRoRuocU

    I'd just start with whatever looked or sounded good to me. If you do find one it probably will take numerous listens, not just one, but who knows, I think it's possible for things to sometimes snap back into place relatively quickly with the right nudging. Long standing patterns, like too much high frequency that's taking up all the bandwidth and decreasing the relative amount of delta, could take longer and more intensive methods to address, like actual neurofeedback, certain meditations, therapy to resolve the trauma that's kicked up the high frequency, etc. Sometimes a "total sweep" or balancing entrainment can help with that, and then just increase delta afterward.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  15. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Dont be afraid to question your doctor if it's not working. Why do I need X? What did you test? Where is the proof? I don't know your doctor, but if he's 1.5 years in without major success, it's time to change. I would follow Freddd or Rich's protocol as closely as possible. They have spent a lot of time working with people to get them where they are at.

    Get someone to help you if you can. Someone who can help you wade through the symptoms and help you with titration. If not, be very detailed with your tracking. Depending on your illness and organizational skills, it may not be easy to track, monitor, and adjust your doses on your own.

    I think this is Freddd's latest. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tocol-with-micro-titration.17818/#post-273588

    I like his methods, they worked and are logical to me. But I am an engineer, not a doctor. So maybe it's too practical for some ;).
  16. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    My first thought is to look at the Cytomel. Are you only taking only Cytomel, no other thyroid med? For how long? Have you ever had a problem with it in the past? When was the last time you had your levels checked?

    I am also hypothyroid, take Synthroid, but went through a disasterous toxic hyperthyroid phase that lasted on and off for 2 years, so I gained a lot of experience in how thyroid hormones can turn your body upside down.

    Other than that, for me, so far, the methylfolate will have me waking up every 2 hours and then staying awake at 5 am for a couple of hours, and that's just 1/4 of a capsule of a B-complex. So, I've been backing off to try to normalize again.
    jeffrez likes this.
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I take extended release N-acetylcysteine (NAC) an hour or so before bedtime and that seems to help me sleep.

    But it depends on what's keeping you awake. NAC might be applicable to your problems, since it probably works by reducing levels of glutamate, an excitatory neurotransmitter. NAC is available over-the-counter, and I like Jarrow's "N-A-C Sustain" since it gets absorbed slower and lasts longer.

    Edit: Some people need Glycine instead of NAC to deal with the same problem, and some people need both.
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I hate to be a cynic, but she may have changed her mind because she sells an angstrom magnesium product -- if you click on the ad next to the article, it sends you to her 'other' website that sells her products:

    http://drcarolyndean.com/2011/01/magnesium-recommendations/

    ???
  19. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    I have done methylation panel, and yasko and 23 and me. I do have cbs and I feel it is cleared. But I have switched doctors a couple of times because I felt worse with what they wanted me to do. You think 1000 is too high. I did not realize that. I am going to go with bare minimun tomorrow and try for lower salicytes. I was eating almonds , macadamia nuts, sardines in olive oil and they are all high. Now I need to figure out what to eat for breakfast. I was eating sardines with olive oil for a long time. I wonder if sulfur can get too low? I just did a UAA test and want to do a UTM/UEE test to see where I am at. I also need to add some vegetables and carbs in too.
  20. freshveggies

    freshveggies Senior Member

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    I just ran my levels in December and they are fine. I tried switching to nature thyroid after my labs and I did not do well. Thanks for the info on methylfolate. I believe it keeps me up to so what I get in the b-complex might not be good. How do we ever do this methylation if we can't have all of the co-factors and essentials? Maybe I just don't need all of these vitamins.

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