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Hydroxo - depression as a side effect?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by opus88, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    I don´t want to provoke anyone, I just hope that we can discuss this subject. I neither don´t want to be a party in the case of the methylation protocols as they surely have to be individualised.

    If methylation really works there will be a detox and release of toxins, including heavy metals. As methylation as an end product produces glutathione, that bind/conjugate with the help of GST -enzymes, this will lead to detoxification . If the GST-enzymes then aren´t in place, probably most because of defects in GST genes, this will not work well and might well give symptoms from toxins. I heard a researcher, knowledgeable in this, warn people, with GST gene defects, to try detoxification protocols as these might cause toxins "float around" without being conjugated to glutathione. I am sorry I can´t express this in a good way, but I think you that are interested can check this with other sources.

    So my guess is that people might get sick from @Freddd ´s protocol because it works. The methylation works maybe too good for some. Richvank also posted about this possible, negative effect from increased methylation by the protocol proposed by him. It is a double-edged sword to get it going again if more toxins are stored in the body than the detoxification pathways can handle. Side-effects from hydroxy-, but not from methylcobalamin, should be caused by something else.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Helen,

    There are two very basic different things that are happening when people are trying to bring their bodies back up from "crashed" near shutdown. First there is B12. The cobalamin molecule is the largest vitamin, 13335-1500 molecular weight. Contrary to popular idea, MeCbl donates almost no CH3 (methyl group). It comprises 1.3% approx. of the mass. According to research, 99% of that is excreted unchanged by the kidneys within 24-48 hours. What the very few MeCbl molecules that get caught up in methylation reactions do is get handed a CH3 and they pass it on, over and over. The actual source is from things like Choline, TMG and other bulk suppliers of Ch3. There are two groups of toxins that affect cobalamins. There are those that suck up the CH3 so that the MeCbl can't do it's job because something interferes with the handoff of CH3 to and from the cobalamin, like arsenic, or that combine with cobalamin portion, as CN (cyanide) or nitrous oxide do. Things like botulism toxin and tetanus neurotoxin are more complicated as to how MeCbl handles them.

    Then there is the other half, AdoCbl which produces ATP. Those of us who have gone into methyltrap and partial ATP block have had the experience of getting sudden onset of quite severe symptoms that are usually diagnosed as a "misc" virus except that these last for decades. When ATP is insufficient all these anti toxin enzymes that are powered by ATP stop working allowing all sorts of toxins and partial products to accumulate.


    We all remember APOLLO 13. The problem was how to start up hundreds of circuits without going over xx amps. According to researchers there are over 600 processes that can be shut down by lack of MeCbl/AdoCbl. Because the researchers of the last 60 years paid all the attention to microscopic effects of CyCbl/HyCbl and folic acid the researchers have ignored 100% how to start up the human body from crashed methylation and crashed ATP. They don't even recognize the conditions. About 10 years ago Rich came up with "partial methylation block" and I came up with "methyl exhaustion" or "exhausted methylator". Each process that is started requires dozens of cofactors along the way.

    With the cooperation of lot's of folks here, and elsewhere, part of the start-up procedure has been mapped. People who recover substantially from partial methylation block have methylation start up again, It does it by layers, perhaps 5 or more layers. The body turns on a full layer at a time. It doesn't partially turn on a layer and "feather" the mechanism, getting barely running, perhaps on 1 cylinder of 8. Instead an entire layer starts in full activity and immediately needs all the cofactors for making cells. With the triage system of the body the folate and b12 appear to be directed to the portion of the body starting up and causing temporary insufficiencies in other layers, a "donut hole" folate insufficiency. One of the signs of a layer starting up is that serum potassium can be pulled low in hours, as one person reported from in hospital testing after she insisted upon a series of tests as her symptoms got worse. However, other factors affect this such as B1, B2 and B3.

    With 5-12 levels (estimated), each potentially having any or all of several types of shutdown, CH3 and ATP at least, there are multiple possible startup sequences. Many of these may depend upon what damage and comorbidities a person has.

    The oldest forms of "natural philosophy" (origins of science) go back to observation, such as Darwin did in observing the finches and their beaks as adaptations to conditions on different islands. Lot's can be learned by watching. Mendel's experiments of breeding peas and observing was the start of all this popular genetics watching. I have watched thousands of people, some healing very well and some not at all. Those that heal substantially all have healing start up on one or more layers, with a variety of induced deficiencies and other effects. The ones that heal substantially then solved each problem as it came up, more potassium for instance. One part of mapping of what "works" is that virtually everybody who heals faster than the body is breaking down, in other words the equilibrium point is rising, needs more potassium. Many need a great deal more folate than they ever expected. Of course at this point it is good to know history. The 400 mcg "normal" dose of folate and the 800mcg, the highest "safe" dose allowed were set without regard to what the body needed. Also. 800mcg was about the maximum of folic acid that could even theoretically be useful via conversion to l-methylfolate in the body. These limits were set so as not to cause Subacute Combined Degeneration by having too much folate without enough b12, and CyCbl/HyCbl often couldn't supply that MeCbl the brain has to have to protect it from damage.

    MeCbl and l-methylfolate both relieve depression. I had a mostly lifelong depression relieved in an hour with my first dose of MeCbl. It took six months of 100 x 350mg desiccated liver tablets a day to relieve my depression, for instance. Lack of MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF can all cause depression and all sorts of mood and personality disorders. These don't turn off like a switch. They can take months to heal, going backwards often through all the neuropsychological effects, effects that may have taken 10-50 years to occur all compressed into one year of changes healing them. It can cause all sorts of disordered thinking. "Brainfog" is sort of the summing it all up, the perhaps dozens of different symptoms form dozens of potentially different sub-causes. Changes to the neurology itself through the years can cause poly sensory hallucinations. These affect thinking. When these same nerves are irritated and activated by healing they can cause all sorts of emotional and disordered thinking. A healing neuropathy goes through all sorts of upsets on the way to "normal" . I also found, from experience, that decades worth of unprocessed emotions and occurrences, may pop up and get processed at any time during this healing process. So one may find one's self mourning a loved one who died 20 years ago, one may go through a patch of OCD. The emotional volatility of returning from "flattened" affect to "normal" can be extremely upsetting. If there is any advantage I have in that it is that I practiced yoga (science of the mind) for most of my life, and learned how to "observe" and even "control" much of the mental upset I went through. It was hard on me, it was hard on my family. As at the same time my tissues we clearly healing, my neuropathies were healing. With most everything healing I mad an important assumption that allowed me to heal. That assumption was that even though unpleasant, it was all in the direction of recovering. The pattern was clear. I went through a similar pattern after starting each item of the Deadlock Quartet. Even the rounds of neurological healing with 9 months of volatility and neurological pain each time became clearly part of the pattern of healing, and each time I ended up better than I had been

    One day I started l-carnitine fumarate. My energy took off lie a rocket. At that point I weight 285 pounds and could gain 3 pounds a day if I stopped the diuretic. Suddenly the water started pouring out of me. It literally stank like stagnant swamp. I lost 45 pounds in a couple of months and then it stopped as quickly as it had started. It was a couple of years later that when Metafolin became cheap enough that I was able to take enough to stop all symptoms of folate insufficiency on all levels that another 45 pounds of water poured off of me. Then I was able to notice that each onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency, each 2 weeks at that point, I started putting on excess water and as soon as that was turned around I would shed the most recent 5-10 pounds of water in a few days. I got that under control the diuretic became too much and caused some serious side effects.

    It's important to recognize the clues. Since there are a good half dozen or more major pathways through this nutritional maze of each persons clues and order of clues is going to be somewhat different. If all these pathways can be mapped out and understood, then more people can find their way through to healing.

    In any case I would think it far more helpful if a person runs into a series of results that causes them problems, it is much more useful to describe them in specific detail without hysterical accusations of "proven dangerous" xxx and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. After all, that the person is responding strongly to these various nutrients demonstrates that they are desperately deficient of the item or items. Since the research institutions abdicated on their responsibility of researching nutrition and the actual substances our bodies use for healing in favor of the microscopic effects of pseudo vitamins that do not produce widespread healing, we (yes, that includes me and you and all the rest of us) do not know what the actual pathways of healing are. I mapped out quite fully the pathways

    When I came across dangerous responses I wrote them up and posted them. So the number one most dangerous effects of healing startup is low serum potassium, which happens to almost everybody who actually succeeds in starting methylation and can be fatal. I wrote it up so that most anybody can understand what the symptoms are and under what circumstances under which it occurs and how to reverse it. Being able to reverse it, over and over, does usually indicate what the cause actually is.

    The second most dangerous thing I have found is "glutathione detox" or "NAC detox". It can cause brain damage and whole body damage via methyltrap. I have written up a detailed alert about that. I write up things that are predictable, repeatable and reliable in causing the said effects.

    Other alerts are that MeCbl can hide tetanus by detoxing the neurotoxin that is the main characteristic of identifying it. It does the same to botox, reverses it. MeCbl also is used in birds to treat avian botulism. I'm surprised it isn't used to treat infant botulism, but then MeCbl is almost totally ignored so we don't learn about other possible useful uses. One person's side effect is another persons desired effect. If I had eaten food with botulism I would flood my body with MeCbl before even heading for the hospital and hope it worked. Right now it is a pesky side effect for somebody having Botox injections for headaches or cosmetics. Side effects often have become treatment once understood. After all Viagra is not famous as a heart drug. Instead it's is best known for it's most outstanding side effect.


    So I agree with Helen, people who react strongly to these nutrients, because they are working, are deficient in them. Instead of maintaining that x response means we throw out everything saying its "wrong" because a person has a specific response to a specific nutrient, I suggest that it is more useful for ones self and for the benefit of others to map out the response in detail and find out what it really is. Right now we have maybe half of the response pathways pretty well mapped with the other half of the pathways blocked with "edge of the world, here there be dragons, do not go here". So instead, how about writing up alerts and cautions about things in full detail that consistently happens, the trials you and other have performed making sure it is reliable, predictable and repeatable.

    I spent 5 years debugging the pathway of healing I am on to the point of getting reliable startup for 95% of the people with the set of symptoms that is posted. It started out at 5%. I have spent the next 5 years finding all sorts of modifying factors and things like induced deficiencies via glutathione and NAC, paradoxical folate deficiency, the effects of too much B1, B2 and B3 and other out of balance situations. Some folks have co-morbidities; other unrelated items or distantly related items that confound the desirable effects of some items. It's a difficult puzzle to figure out. I got to see about half of it personally. Others of you have gotten to see the other half of the pathways. The only way those are going to be solved is to provide enough data to those who can think about it in a larger context or solve it yourselves. Waiting for the medical research complex to solve it won't happen in any of our lifetimes.

    Solving a problem like this takes a good deal of cooperation.
    .
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, nicontinic acid is a form of niacin. It soaks up methyl groups. So it should work for any sort of overmethylation situation - any form of folate, B12, TMG, lecithin, SAMe, etc.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @brenda Right - I get the same symptoms. I've done a separate metal chelation with DMSA, etc. so I know what it feels like. While on methylation, I also for the first time ever, got metal detox symptoms from eating cilantro in some salsa. (Cilantro also causes metal detox.)

    Anyway, this is a good thing and means that the treatment is working. The trick is to reduce the doses so that the metal detox is not uncomfortable or dangerous. See the Start Low and Go Slow link in my signature.

    As an example, I'm currently doing very tiny doses of folate twice a week, along with a small amount of B12 every day until I get through metal detox. Based on the last time I chelated, I'm expecting it to take six months.
    brenda likes this.
  5. PNR2008

    PNR2008 Senior Member

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    We are all so sick, that sometimes the devil we know is better than the one we don't. I have left temporal abnormalities seen on SPECT scan that may represent a hereditary focus for my rage attacks (the right is consistent with CFS/ME). Therefore even drugs can make that focus worse and I am careful of anything. It doesn't take much for me to face the snake pit and with my family I'd be locked away or dead and buried before it was found out I took one pill too much of b12. (just an example).

    I want to try everything and anything to get better, by GOD but I have been through "Die-off", herx, hell whatever, and it scares me to death.

    I wish I could have you brainy types in my pocket for instant advice or care because I am enormously grateful for you and I know you are on to something, but unless @caledonia moves next-door and gives me step by step instructions for methyl, I'm afraid to lay out my weekly meds. This brain can't be counted on for much, therein lies the dilemma.

    It's like asking dementia patients weather or not they should buy a new car or lease one.
  6. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @caledonia l know it means it was working, and l took a very small dose but the problem is brain damage with mercury release when it is not chelated.I do take small doses but l get very bad depression but recently l have been quit everything as l have relapsed and slowly building up again.
    Tito likes this.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PNR,

    I have seen sequences of anxiety, fear, anger rage, homicidal rage, severe depression of a period of 18-36 hours from certain nutrients in persons with FMS/CFS symptoms plus anxiety. It looks and acts like limbic system damage from partial ATP block in the mitochondria in the neurons in parts of the limbic system. This thrown in with some kind of dopamine problem which appears to be activated when ATP production increases. This appears most typically to go through this sequence with rising and then falling carnitine level when of this cause.

    Things get especially difficult when there are co-morbidity factors. Good luck.
  8. PNR2008

    PNR2008 Senior Member

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    Thank you Freddd, I don't do well with dopamine or steroids and I feel like I'd need a methyl clinic to go forward. Just too scary. In the early 90's I went to Jesse Stoff MD and was put on B12, folic acid, and kutapression shots that I gave myself. At first it seemed to help but after 2-3 shots a week for about 6mos. all I had were ugly black'n'blue marks on my skinny hips (skinny at the time lol). I've tried but living alone, I just have myself to talk me down from a bad trip.
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @brenda How do you know you're getting brain damage? The methylation treatment just increases your body's natural detoxification ability. Chelation (say using ALA or DMSA) also uses your body's natural detoxification channels. I would think the problem would actually be with trying to chelate when you're not able to detox well. So I don't quite understand what you're saying. We might have two different ideas of what chelation is?

    But anyway, quitting for awhile and letting everything clear out is a very good idea. If methylation/chelation causes depression, then you need to go even slower than you have been.

    I've recently switched to only dosing a tiny amount of folate twice a week instead of every day. This gives the metals a chance to clear before the next round. It's been working well for me.
    brenda likes this.
  10. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @caledonia

    If we have faulty detox genes, then there is a possibility that mercury will ha ng around too long if no chelators are taken. Well that's my understanding and if it enters the brain its bad news. I felt like it was being mobilised. I was building up my dose of hydrox and folinic until my thyroid started to play up with iodine .

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