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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
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Huge improvement in two hours

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    ok ... this is not scientifically correct, but for simplicity, and in this context .... when I was referring to the lymphatic system I meant the glands/nodes where the bits and pieces of the immune system are made and stored ... and the immune system in this context is the bits and pieces that attack and kill pathogens ....

    I am always going to get pulled up on correct terminology .... Sorry, but I always forget the correct names ......
     
  2. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi maryb,

    took the kids to a nice seaside town called Bridport (NE Tasmania).... bleached white sands, warm water in a sandy bay .... and temps over 30C .... just beautiful :)

    Cheers.
     
  3. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Well we've got rain, rain rain and more rain, the ground is so wet its colder at 8oC than it would be at -2. That cold damp that gets in your bones - all ages too, my cleaner who's only 36 was complaining yesterday. Horrible.
    Glad someone's got the sunshine somewhere, Bridport sounds fabulous, glad you had a good time.
     
    Elph68 likes this.
  4. PathogenKiller

    PathogenKiller

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    I did Zithro for a month. I'm not going after my strep with Zithro. My doc sas youd have to be on abx for years to treat chronic strep. My titers have been coming down on herbs so I'm cool with that. Went from. 900+ down under 400 in 6 months while fighting Lyme and myco too. I already use a xylitol as a mouthwash and gargle for the strep. Im sure the Zithro was active against the strep. Also, are you familiar with pairing efflux pump inhibitors like berberine with abx? It really helps resistance. Also, serrazimes. Just took my 12 month blood tests so well see what's up. I can't believe the change in just one year. It's been amazing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
    Adlyfrost likes this.
  5. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @PathogenKiller
    glad to hear your levels are coming down, such good news. Can you tell me more about the herbs you are using and the use of berberine with abx.
    also why would you choose serrazimes over serrapeptase?
    thanks
     
  6. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    I am very sorry that it has taken so long to reply but I have been a little busy .... If I am making a theoretical assumption, I will say so .... A scientific fact is what I have been talking about here.

    You will see in this paper that destruction of the epithelial layer=increased intestinal permeability otherwise known as a 'leaky gut' .... which is what I am trying to get across here in this thread.

    http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v19/i43/7531.htm

    This talks of protease expression, which is the foundation of the 'undetectable infection' thread. Protease expression is what causes the inflammation and IgA antibodies. The biofilms also produce super oxide and hydrogen peroxide as stated in previous threads which also damages the epithelial layer .....
     
  7. PathogenKiller

    PathogenKiller

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    My primary supplements/herbs are
    Olive Leaf Extract
    Berberine
    Triphala
    Anatumul
    NAC
    methyl b-12
    lmthf
    b-5
    ubiquinol
    butyrate
    biotin
    lactoferrin
    probiotics
    various enzymes

    Here is a study about efflux pump inhibitors
    http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/6/1247.fullhttp://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/6/1247.full

    I take serrazimes because it is supposedly a cleaner version. Most of these enzymes are fermented products and thus that leaves room for mold contamination, inactivity.. etc.
     
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  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I had a quick glance, but I cannot find anything in that paper which states that destruction of the epithelial layer leads to increased intestinal permeability. Perhaps you might want to quote the paragraph where you believe it states this.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  9. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Do you notice any effect directly from NAC, good or bad? It makes me feel worse.
     
    Grigor likes this.
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I don't have time to read the whole paper but pulled this out of the conclusion:

     
    Elph68 likes this.
  11. PathogenKiller

    PathogenKiller

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    @knackers323
    The nac made me worse for about 5 days.

    Nac is one of my top 10 supplements. I definitely find it valuable
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @MeSci
    Thanks for that extract. It does not seem to mention anything about intestinal permeability though, or say anything about destruction of epithelial cells leading to increased intestinal permeability.

    The phrase "epithelial barrier function" refers to the physical barrier provided by the cell membranes of the epithelial cells, plus the tight junctions which are responsible for "stitching" these epithelial cells together. Leaky gut is known to be caused by a failure of the "stitching," that is to say, by tight junction dysfunction. This tight junction dysfunction leads to microscopic holes at the molecular level. Leaky gut occurs at the molecular level. Leaky gut is not like some sieve or tea bag with macroscopically visible holes.

    And I have never heard of leaky gut being caused by a failure in the epithelial cells themselves. If there were any destruction to epithelial cells, I would think that the self-repair processes of the epithelial layer would kick in, and rapidly fix and repair the damage, just as when you cut your skin and the skin healing process kicks in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    It does mention permeability:

    Yes, as I understand it, leaky gut is about disruption of the tight junctions, and I have not yet seen evidence of destruction of epithelial cells.

    NB the paper in question is about inflammatory bowel disease, so not sure how relevant it is to other bowel conditions.
     
  14. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    You only had to read the abstract, the 7th line in ....

    Numerous reports have identified a dysbiosis in the intestinal microbiota in patients suffering from inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD), yet the mechanism(s) in which this complex microbial community initiates or perpetuates inflammation remains unclear. The purpose of this review is to present evidence for one such mechanism that implicates enteric microbial derived proteases in the pathogenesis of IBD. We highlight and discuss studies demonstrating that proteases and protease receptors are abundant in the digestive system. Additionally, we investigate studies demonstrating an association between increased luminal protease activity and activation of protease receptors, ultimately resulting in increased intestinal permeability and exacerbation of colitis in animal models as well as in human IBD. Proteases are essential for the normal functioning of bacteria and in some cases can serve as virulence factors for pathogenic bacteria. Although not classified as traditional virulence factors, proteases originating from commensal enteric bacteria also have a potential association with intestinal inflammation via increased enteric permeability. Reports of increased protease activity in stools from IBD patients support a possible mechanism for a dysbiotic enteric microbiota in IBD. A better understanding of these pathways and characterization of the enteric bacteria involved, their proteases, and protease receptors may pave the way for new therapeutic approaches for these diseases.

    And if you want a broad definition .... colitis is a result of the destruction of the epithelial layer .....
     
  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci,

    there is a likelyhood that they may find a lot of people that have IBS, in fact have IBD, it is just not easily detectable ...
     
  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Unfortunately there are 2 basic mechanisms that prevent the total repair ....
    1. protease activity
    2. Super oxide and hydrogen peroxide production

    So using your analogy of a cut ... if you cut your finger and then continually scrape it out with a sharp object, it never completely heals.....
     
    xchocoholic likes this.
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Elph68
    It seems that you are right that a loss of epithelial cells can increase intestinal permeability, but the study you quoted says this happens in the context of inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD), which are a set of severe bowel conditions, such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis (UC).

    However, ME/CFS patients generally do not have Crohn's or UC or other forms of IBD, so this epithelial cell damage probably does not apply to ME/CFS, or to most other diseases. Most diseases do not involve severe bowel inflammation.

    Many ME/CFS patients do have irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), myself included, but if there is any inflammation in IBS, it is very subtle and weak, not like the severe bowel inflammation found in Crohn's or UC.

    I should think that outside of IBD, you will not get loss of epithelial cells, and so I would think that outside of IBD, leaky gut when it does occur will be only be caused by tight junction dysfunction in most people.



    Incidentally, I have speculated that a leaky gut from tight junction dysfunction may promote the coxsackievirus B infections that are strongly linked to ME/CFS.

    The receptor that many coxsackievirus B species attach to in order to enter and infect human cells is called the coxsackievirus and adenovirus receptor (CAR). The interesting thing about CAR is that it is found in an inaccessible location: CAR is actually part of the tight junction that binds together the epithelial cells in the intestinal lining, and tight junctions are normally closed, making CAR inaccessible.

    So how does coxsackievirus B attach itself to CAR?

    This passage explains it:
    So I can't help wondering whether having leaky gut, where your tight junctions are open and dysfunctional, may allow a coxsackievirus B infection in the gut to become worse than normal, as one might speculate that a leaky gut will make the CAR receptors more accessible to coxsackievirus B.

    But this is all just pure speculation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
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  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Where does it say that? There are several forms of colitis, one, interestingly, being caused by CMV, one of the exclusionary causes tested for in the diagnosis of ME/CFS. That is described here. I still haven't spotted anything in your linked abstract about proteases destroying epithelial cells - can you point me to it?

    I was diagnosed with 'spastic colon' (an old name for IBS) at the age of 11, having been opened up due to suspected appendicitis. My colon was said to be inflamed.
     
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  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Perhaps the more crucial thing is that by attaching to this receptor the virus is able to enter the bloodstream and thus access the rest of the body. Interesting find.
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Or alternatively, one could speculate a leaky gut might allow the virus easier access the vagus nerve — a nerve which enervates the gut tissues and runs from gut to brain — and then travel along this nerve, and enter the brain.

    Dr Chia said that this vagus nerve route may be how coxsackievirus B is able to get into the brain. There is a mechanism of transport that viruses can use to travel along nerves called retrograde axonal transport (RAT). By means of RAT, it takes just three days for a virus to travel all the way along the vagus nerve, from gut to brain.
     
    Antares in NYC likes this.

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