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Huge improvement in two hours

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by knackers323, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @maryb
    Whoops, that is an error. Of course, CFS patients need to boost their Th1 cytokines, not Th2 cytokines, in order to get better. I have corrected my post now — thanks.


    What I also found interesting by reading those research papers is that Gram-positive bacteria induce Th1 cytokines, whereas Gram-negative bacteria induce Th2 cytokines. This fact has nothing to do with the Lactobacillus rhamnosus lysate supplement, but it was just mentioned in the research. The reference given was to this paper.

    I am well aware that LPS (lipopolysaccharide), which comes from the cell walls of Gram-negative bacteria, induces a Th2 response, and so Gram-negative bacteria will thus tend to shift the immune system to Th2, especially if the LPS from Gram-negative bacteria in the gut leaks into the blood stream.

    But I did not know that Gram-positive bacteria induce the desired Th1 cytokines.

    Gram-positive bacteria include: Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Enterococcus. Most bacterial probiotics are Gram positive.

    Gram-negative bacteria include: Escherichia coli, Proteus mirabilis, Salmonella, Shigella, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Helicobacter, Spirochaetes.


    This makes me wonder whether ME/CFS patients should take antibiotics that target only the Gram-negative bacterial species in the gut. Streptomycin is an antibiotic that is very effective against Gram-negative bacteria, but has little effect against Gram-positive.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I wonder whether the type of bacterial dysbiosis - too many gram-positive bacteria, as posited by Sheedy et al in this paper on d-lactic acidosis and ME, or too many gram-negative bacteria, as posited by Maes and Leunis in this paper - is yet another way to subdivide ME. Maybe it could explain why some of us appear to do better from increasing gut acidity and others from increasing alkalinity.
    snowathlete and Little Bluestem like this.
  3. MARGARITA COLOMBO

    MARGARITA COLOMBO TAOWAY

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    Azantac is a comercial name for ranitidine, a protón bomb inhibitor or antiacid
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @MeSci
    I think the improvement from ME/CFS obtained after fixing leaky gut, as described in the Maes paper, is very likely because the LPS leaking from the gut was causing a shift the Th2.

    Not sure about the D-lactic acid hypothesis in the Sheedy paper though. If this D-lactic acid hypothesis were true, it would presumably also affect people with SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth) as well.
  5. cosmo

    cosmo

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    Can I ask, as a lot of the bits are lost on me, but would this do me any harm at all or is it just a supplement?

    Thank you, anything is worth a go!
  6. est_sunshine

    est_sunshine

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    This is exciting! I just found this study on pubmed about using bovine colostrum as a vaccine via Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. I know some say bovine colostrum has helped them, maybe it has these proteins?


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24291196

    Vaccine. 2013 Nov 27. pii: S0264-410X(13)01591-0. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2013.11.057. [Epub ahead of print]
    Engineered Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG expressing IgG-binding domains of protein G: Capture of hyperimmune bovine colostrum antibodies and protection against diarrhea in a mouse pup rotavirus infection model.
    Günaydın G1, Zhang R1, Hammarström L1, Marcotte H2.
    Author information
    Abstract

    Rotavirus-induced diarrhea causes more than 500,000 deaths annually in the world, and although vaccines are being made available, new effective treatment strategies should still be considered. Purified antibodies derived from hyperimmune bovine colostrum (HBC), from cows immunized with rotavirus, were previously used for treatment of rotavirus diarrhea in children. A combination of HBC antibodies and a probiotic strain of Lactobacillus (L. rhamnosus GG) was also found to be more effective than HBC alone in reducing diarrhea in a mouse model of rotavirus infection. In order to further improve this form of treatment, L. rhamnosus GG was engineered to display surface expressed IgG-binding domains of protein G (GB1, GB2, and GB3) which capture HBC-derived IgG antibodies (HBC-IgG) and thus target rotavirus. The expression of IgG-binding domains on the surface of the bacteria as well as their binding to HBC-IgG and to rotavirus (simian strain RRV) was demonstrated by Western blot, flow cytometry, and electron microscopy. The prophylactic effect of engineered L. rhamnosus GG and anti-rotaviral activity of HBC antibodies was evaluated in a mouse pup model of RRV infection. The combination therapy with engineered L. rhamnosus GG (PG3) and HBC was significantly more effective in reducing the prevalence, severity, and duration of diarrhea in comparison to HBC alone or a combination of wild-type L. rhamnosus GG and HBC. The new therapy reduces the effective dose of HBC between 10 to 100-fold and may thus decrease treatment costs. This antibody capturing platform, tested here for the first time in vivo, could potentially be used to target additional gastrointestinal pathogens.

    Copyright © 2013 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

    KEYWORDS:
    GB1-3, HBC, HBC-IgG, Hyperimmune bovine colostrum, IgG, IgG-binding domains GB1, GB2, and GB3 of protein G, Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, Neonatal mouse model, Probiotic, Protein G, RRV, Rotavirus, hyperimmune bovine colostrum, hyperimmune bovine colostrum derived-IgG antibodies, immunoglobulin G, rhesus rotavirus
  7. ruben

    ruben

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    suffolk
    Hi there, I'm keen to give this a go. Just to be clear then, I followed the link to the "pure prescriptions" website and saw the "Russian choice". Is this the stuff then containing the rhamnosis lysate powder capsules. Sorry to sound dim!!
    Ritto likes this.
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Both Russian Choice Immune by Allergy Research, and Del-Immune V are brands of Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate.

    Neither contain any live bacteria, but rather contain fragments of the cell wall of Lactobacillus rhamnosus bacteria. These cell wall fragments stimulate the immune system.
  9. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci,

    lol ... I have an overgrowth of both types .... so how does that work here? I am buggered really :(
  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    The reason you have a leaky gut in most cases is because of gram positive bacteria. Some species of strep, enterococcus, lactobacillus etc. form biofilms and create oxidative stress on the intestine walls as they produce hydrogen peroxide at greater than ROS levels .....

    The hydrogen peroxide lyses the cells in the walls causing increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut) allowing small and large particles to pass through ....

    This is the undetectable infection I have been blabbering on about ..... Once these bacteria break through the intestine walls they are attacked by the immune system .... continuously .... once broken through they also have direct access to the lymphatic system where they can take up residence and give the immune system a really, really hard time .... The lymphatic system is then placed under further oxidative stress from the bacteria within ....

    System wide inflammation occurs from LTA Lipoteichoic Acid (Gram+ Bacteria Skins) which induces the inflammatory response, as you have stated.

    The immune system burns out ...... The lymphatic system is taken out ..... result = ME/CFS

    Happy New Year :)
    WoolPippi likes this.
  11. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    You know anything effective against breaking down the biofilm?
  12. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    xylitol is one product .... it is poisonous to strep and breaks down biofilms .... won't completely rid them though ....

    Tea tree oil ..... not sure if you should drink it though ....

    Antibiotics ..... really strong ones .... moxifloxican, azithromycin, vancomycin

    If you have had this a long time .... you are going to need IV abx to cure it ..... Gentamycin is probably the trick for getting the bugs out of the lymphatic system ....

    Cheers.
    Adlyfrost and maryb like this.
  13. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Is there any way to test for these bugs outside of the stomach?
  14. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    not really .... all as you will get is 'normal flora' ..... they aren't considered pathogens ...

    Only a research lab will look for specific strains ..... If anybody knows of one, I would really like to know ...
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Beg nasal spray is said to break down biofilms and kill staph infections common in sinus infections. It contains bactroban, gentamicin and edta. It works well for me and dont require oral abx while on this but due to neutropenia, infection returns if I stop treatment.
    Unsure who these substances may help you but if they help biofilms involved in sinus infections maybe u can find some leads searching these meds for your situation.
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Good question...
  17. Abha

    Abha Abha

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    Hi Elph68 and all

    Happy New Year......

    Be careful re use of Tea Tree oil...It is for external use only as far as I'm aware.Once I used it to treat a small pimple on the end of my nose.It burned the area and the pimple turned it to a growth.In the end I had to go to hosital to have it removed(examined too).I found that tea tree oil caused small blisters to arise between toes/fingers(perhaps rickettsia or other infection)...I used it in a very weak solution in my nostril and it caused havoc there too(some infection reacting?).In the past I used SCD diet too....now I'm trying GAPS(not completely as yet).My GUT/BRAIN problems still continue......
  18. MARGARITA COLOMBO

    MARGARITA COLOMBO TAOWAY

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    Maybe I know too little about precise medical issues, correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds to me very difficult for any product to have such a quick and vast response if the effect is biological (curing from a virus). Wouldn´t this be more interesting/realistic to be seen as a chemical effect?

    My experience with magnesia milk went on for as long as I took it, and it takes only a couple of hours for making me feel completely normal. It is more effective with anticandida diet (I need lees amount of it but can be done without dieting) but also produces a full-radical result, makes me feel like if I had been healed completely.

    I am having terrible problems for going back to my diet now that I have been eating all kind of sweets that I missed for so so so long..., but having read AthomeiaRuanda`s (in this forum) lasts posts makes me believe in healing the gut. After I discovered the only single person I have read about that has gone from bed bound to full-consistent everyday work, I checked she really exists (had been posting here for a long time) and has no comercial interest, followed her blog, and started exchanging mails with her. She is a very nice person, has good doctors in Australia and was glad to give me a lot of advice. I don´t have equivalent diagnosis and alergies evaluation help but I will start simple and introduce food one by one like I used to do with my children.
  19. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

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    the article seems promising but i guess its not recommended to people with lacto overgrowth / lactate acidosis
  20. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    By what mechanism do you think milk of megnesia improves your symptoms?

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