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Huge improvement in two hours

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
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maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@knackers323
Can I ask you - Do you get colds, flu etc?. Just wondering if you needed an immune booster, I've rarely had anything since getting ME apart from massive viral crashes, so think my immune system is already on high alert??just thinking out loud be interested to hear what others think............
 

globalpilot

Senior Member
Messages
626
Location
Ontario
Unbelievable. I took rhamnosus lysate powder capsules thinking it was a probiotic.

Two hours later I felt human again. I don't really know what else to say. Anyone else tried this? Give it a go.

Very interesting. How much did you take and is it single strain ?
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
How is to feel human? :D What are the specific feelings that improved? I´ve seen that supplement, it is intriguing. I think it does something to the immune system.

It might be because of this, it seems to help with leaky gut which in turn helps with autoimmunity and inflammation:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030209705557
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/iadt/2010/00000009/00000003/art00005

I don't think it could be due to a healed gut switching off autoimmunity, as the effect was too fast. I think it must have been a different effect. Hope it lasts, @knackers323. Stay human! (Maybe if you take more you will feel superhuman!)
 

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
Yeah I thought the same, but then what could be the mechanism? Undoubtely is related with the immune system and most probably the gut.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Yeah I thought the same, but then what could be the mechanism? Undoubtely is related with the immune system and most probably the gut.

There may be lots of possibilities. Reduced inflammation perhaps? An effect via the vagus nerve?
 

jstefl

Senior Member
Messages
250
Location
Brookfield, Wisconsin
This sounds very interesting.

Can you provide us with some information on the powder? What brand, where can we find it, what dose did you take, and anything else that may help.

Thanks

John
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
I've taken probiotics in the past that have given me quite a boost within a couple hours. However it's always been unsustainable. What seems to be happening is it bumps me into an anaerobic mode that has me functioning at a higher level of energy, but once the glycogen runs out I end up feeling more spent.
 
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Messages
25
I am having the same incredible results (several hours after) taking regular Azantac, Magnesia Milk and Triphala (indian herb mixture), the latest only for bowel movements in case I need extra help. I know it´s not a sustainble cure because these medicines alter the flora balance. In fact years ago after taking only magnesia milk for 2 years I got a polip in my stomach. I would use these only for emergencies and following christmas time I will try to find an alternative way to rebullid PH balance.
My energy level is at 100, brain función also 100, and this has happened to me for aprox 10 days in a row, there is not doubt digestive system is the issue, but I have never been able to feel so well with only diet changes.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
I took allergy research groups russian choice rhamnosus lysate powder.

No I don't normally get colds or sick. I took six capsules twice.

This morning I have woken up still feeling better than I normally would. I have had similar, yet nowhere near as strong a reaction with probiotics before but it did not last.

However it more and more things are pointing towards the gut even though I don't have any gut symptoms.

The product is apparently the broken up shells of the rhamnosus powder and acts on the immune system and the bacteria at least when alive, kills streptococcus which I have an overgrowth of.

The websites that sell the product have an interesting description about how it works if someone more computer able can post it here.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
I am having the same incredible results (several hours after) taking regular Azantac, Magnesia Milk and Triphala (indian herb mixture), the latest only for bowel movements in case I need extra help. I know it´s not a sustainble cure because these medicines alter the flora balance. In fact years ago after taking only magnesia milk for 2 years I got a polip in my stomach. I would use these only for emergencies and following christmas time I will try to find an alternative way to rebullid PH balance.
My energy level is at 100, brain función also 100, and this has happened to me for aprox 10 days in a row, there is not doubt digestive system is the issue, but I have never been able to feel so well with only diet changes.

What Is azantac? How do these things work? Can't find much info on them. Thanks
 

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
http://www.pureprescriptions.com/russian-choice-immune-allergy-research-group/p532

Excerpt:
Russian Choice Immune, while not containing live bacteria itself, may also support the growth of healthy intestinal flora, by providing immunoactivating proteins in the intestinal villi cells, supporting the natural repair mechanisms and healthy condition of the villi. Healthy villi can promote the adhesion of friendly bacteria to intestinal cells, supporting the further growth of the bacteria.

Russian Choice Immune contains specially prepared lactobacillus cell wall fragments, which have very different properties from lactobacillus taken to repopulate the intestinal tract. The Russian Choice Immune lactobacillus is cultured, and then the cell walls are broken apart, or lysed. This frees the immune-active proteins that are usually sequestered inside the cells to have unimpeded access to trigger and magnify the immune system response. Although probiotics and cultured milk products have immune supporting properties, Russian Choice Immune is a much more powerful immune system stimulator.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
It seems that the name of the ingredient in this Allergy Research Russian choice rhamnosus lysate powder supplement is Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate, which is composed of peptides derived from the cell wall of Lactobacillus rhamnosus bacteria.

Another brand of the same product is Del-Immune V, and on their website I found the following text:

Del-Immune V®: Born in Russia, perfected in America

In 1999, a cell wall formulation developed from Russian and Ukrainian research was brought to the United States by a retired Boulder, Colorado pharmacist. The pharmacist discovered that the lactobacillus cell wall product had a beneficial effect on his daughter’s hepatitis C symptoms when added to her supplement routine. What’s more, the product eliminated or improved several other health issues reported by friends and acquaintances. The pharmacist named the product “Del-Immune.”

In 2003, product manufacturing was moved from St. Petersburg, Russia to Vivolac Laboratories in Indianapolis, Indiana. Del-Immune’s potency and quality control were substantially enhanced through advanced American biotechnology. The pharmacist then renamed his American-made product “Del-Immune V®.” Today, Del-Immune V® is used by thousands of people in the United States and many other countries.


What is The difference between probiotics and Del-Immune V®?

The major difference between Del-Immune V® and conventional probiotics? Probiotics are live cultures; Del-Immune V® is a lysed product derived from these live cultures. “Lysing” is the central process. To make Del-Immune V®, Lactobacillus rhamnosus (DV strain) is cultured, then lysed – or broken apart with natural enzymes that are identical to those found in the human intestine. This creates cell wall fragments and pieces of DNA, the active components with special immune activators. The product mix is pulverized to produce a fine powder containing microscopic particles of cell wall fragments and other cell components.

The immune response activity takes place only when the lactobacillus cell is digested and broken into cell pieces. This entire process occurs naturally in the lower end of the small intestine and in the upper end of the large intestine.

Continuing and emerging research suggests that bacterial surface layer components from cell walls, when taken orally, enhance natural killer cell activity and increase the production of natural interferons which are known to attack bodily invaders that lead to illness.

The natural immune activation process from cell wall fragments provides resistance to infection that is non-specific, but also extends to environmental invaders, including seasonal infections. It is estimated that each capsule of Del-Immune V® contains more than 2 billion cell wall fragments to accelerate natural immune response.


Some research papers on Del-Immune V are found here.

Some excerpts from these research papers are as follows:

➤ Research paper: Del-Immune V Profile.

Del-Immune V Lactobacillus rhamnosus lysate stimulates the production of the cytokine line (IL-1), tumor necrosis factor (TNF-α), IL-2, IL-6, IL-8, IL-12 and gamma interferon (IFN-γ), which, in turn control production of Т-lymphocytes, В- lymphocytes, natural killer (NK) cells and phagocytes that coordinate the immune response, depending on the nature of the aggressive agent by Th1 or Th2 pathways respectively.

Note that several of the cytokines Del-Immune V stimulates (the ones I put in bold) are the Th1 cytokines, which of course are desirable for ME/CFS, as ME/CFS patients need to boost their Th1 cytokines in order to get better.

Just a quick reminder:
Th1 cytokines are: IL-2, IL-12, IFN-γ
Th2 cytokines are: IL-4, IL-10


➤ Research paper: Study of Interferonogenous Activity of the New Probiotic Formulation Del-Immune V (A better pdf version of this document can be found here.)

This study found that Del-Immune V Lactobacillus rhamnosus lysate induces interferon alpha and interferon gamma.

Del-Immune V demonstrated higher interferonogenous activity in vivo and in vitro than Bifidobacterium bifidum.

But although Del-Immune V induced higher levels of interferon than Bifidobacterium bifidum bacteria, presumably a Bifidobacterium bifidum probiotic might be almost as good as Del-Immune V?

It should be noted that gram-positive bacteria, including lactobacilli, activate the major class II histocompatibility complex, which induces IFN-γ and IL-12, which are necessary for Th1 differentiation of T-helpers.

Gram-negative bacteria and LPS (a major component of the cell wall of gram-negative bacteria; lipopolysaccharides are endotoxins and important antigens) induce monocytic production of IL-10, inhibiting cytotoxicity activation of IFN-γ and secretion by Т- and NK-cells.



➤ Analysis: An Analytical Comparison of Del-Immune V® and Russian Choice Immune

The conclusion here is that there are some important differences between these two Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate supplements:

Del-Immune V contained at least three times more protein than Russian Choice Immune.
Del-Immune V contained more than 100 times the DNA than the Russian Choice Immune capsules.

More info regarding the comparison of the two products: Russian Choice Immune vs Del-Immune V is found here.



I also found this study: Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate in the management of resistant childhood atopic eczema.

This study found that Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate provides a substantial improvement in eczema skin symptoms.
 
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maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@Hip
my heads a bit woozy this morning (must have been all that alcohol I didn't drink!!!) can you just tell me what this bit means from your post. Thanks


"Note that several the cytokines Del-Immune V stimulates (the ones I put in bold) are the Th1 cytokines, which of course are desirable for ME/CFS, as ME/CFS patients need to boost their Th2 cytokines in order to get better"

I' m going to get my test results out later on see which cytokines I had tested and if I can make sense if it.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Hi Knackers,

You may be interested in this study ......

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/study/NCT00756262?view=results

Lactobacillus rhamnosus LGG is being investigated as a method of removing gut pathogens ....

A couple of of the exclusion criteria seem problematic for some of us:
  • Presence of an active bowel leak, acute abdomen, active intestinal disease, or significant bowel dysfunction
  • Known or suspected allergies to...milk protein
The leaky gut protocol used by Maes, and maybe others, excludes milk, so presumably milk protein allergy - or sensitivity - is thought to play a part in leaky gut, at least for some people. (Or it may be lactose that that diet is designed to exclude.)

Maybe this study is effectively testing a treatment for a different sub-group from that which many of us may fall into.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,820
my heads a bit woozy this morning (must have been all that alcohol I didn't drink!!!) can you just tell me what this bit means from your post. Thanks

My head also... terrible thing this teetotal business!

Basically, the research shows that Lactobacillus rhamnosus cell lysate supplements increase the Th1 mode of the immune system.

The Th1 mode is needed in ME/CFS patients, in order to fight off the viral and intracellular infections in ME/CFS.