Huge energy today with Grapefruit and Ubiquinol (Coenzyme Q10). We'll see about tomorrow.

[Alvin2]

This surprises me, because Low fT3 is linked to disease severity in Parkinson and Quercitin (like most flavonoids) inhibits Deiodinase type 1, which means lower T3 (and higher rT3), so it looks contradictory...

I don't think there is patient research done yet (but would be nice to see) but here is an article that explains
https://scienceofparkinsons.com/tag/quercetin/
This doesn't prove anything in humans but would be interesting to see investigated further.

 

[BeautifulDay]

That's a good point, quercetin is poorly absorbed, with a bioavailability of about 4%. Rutin bioavailability may be higher, but I am not sure.

Though even with the poor bioavailability, I have found quercetin 500 mg overstimulating, and don't like it (quercetin acts on the same adenosine receptors as caffeine, which is why I think it produces overstimulation). I am fine with rutin 500 mg though.

Itraconazole I find makes me sleep more deeply, for some reason, which is nice. So I think I will use grapefruit juice and itraconazole to inhibit P-glycoprotein.

Please let me know how your test goes. I've had a toenail infection for two years. All my podiatrist gives me is a prescription for something that looks like clear nail polish to paint on the toenail. After two years, clearly it's not working. I'm glad to know that Itraconazole exists.

 

[BeautifulDay]

I was so excited to stumble on this thread! Thank you @BeautifulDay . Unfortunately my first try of this this morning sent me back to bed for a 4 hour sleep.
This is usually the case for me, I read something that works for someone and I get so excited. Then it does absolutely nothing for me or makes me worse.
The bright side is that I may have found something for my insomnia.
But I'm going to try it again tomorrow.

Interesting. Great job listening to your body. I hope you have very restful sleep tonight! Let me know how it continues to go. Maybe you'll turn out to be one of those people that needs to take it at night. I've heard that some people are so sleep deprived from not enough ATP in their mitochondria sleep center in the brain, that anything that improves the ATP can help with sleep. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you find what works for you.

 

[BeautifulDay]

Quercetin is one i know a lot about, Its bioavailability is low (a few percent), there is a bioactive form called EMIQ that is very bioavailaible (and much more pricey). It has a half life in the body (what gets in) of about 2 hours (iirc). All that said if all its doing is increasing absorption in the gut it may not matter that it has low bioavailability, it may not need to get into the bloodstream at all, and of the agents mentioned its probably the safest to consume regularly and has many actions in the body (it helps eliminate senescent cells for one) an its found in many vegetables and even coffee in small amounts. It may also reduce the risk of Parkinsons (or even treat it).

Thanks @Alvin2 Great information.

 

[BeautifulDay]

This surprises me, because Low fT3 is linked to disease severity in Parkinson and Quercitin (like most flavonoids) inhibits Deiodinase type 1, which means lower T3 (and higher rT3), so it looks contradictory...

I don't think there is patient research done yet (but would be nice to see) but here is an article that explains
https://scienceofparkinsons.com/tag/quercetin/
This doesn't prove anything in humans but would be interesting to see investigated further.

Thanks @pattismith and @Alvin2
This discussion reminds me to always look for further studies.

I was in a national chain vitamin store last week. Behind me a man came in asking a basic question about taking B12 in high doses. The salesperson was telling him all about how great B12 is. However, I believe that it would have been more responsible if he had also given the opposing views too. For example, too much B12 is thought to significantly increase lung cancer in male smokers. https://www.drweil.com/vitamins-supplements-herbs/vitamins/can-b-vitamins-cause-cancer/

I recommend taking any thing told to anyone by a vitamin store employee with a grain of salt and doing the research yourself.

 

[Hip]

Please let me know how your test goes. I've had a toenail infection for two years. All my podiatrist gives me is a prescription for something that looks like clear nail polish to paint on the toenail. After two years, clearly it's not working. I'm glad to know that Itraconazole exists.

3 hours ago I took with a meal:

Q10 500 mg
Itraconazole 100 mg
200 ml of grapefruit juice

I can't say that I feel any surge of energy, but I am more tired than usual today, due to not sleeping enough last night, so it's not the best of days to test this protocol. But I will try again tomorrow.

By the way, if you have a fungal toenail infection that does not seem to improve with antifungals, it may not be an infection at all, but might be psoriasis of the toe, which looks exactly like a fungal infection.



On the subject of mitochondria and antioxidants: have you looked at MitoQ, which is a special form of Q10 that is designed to concentrate in the mitochondria? There are several published studies on MitoQ. If you are gaining benefit from ordinary Q10 because it helps your mitochondrial weaknesses, then potentially MitoQ might work even better. It is unfortunately a little expensive.

There is also a very interesting mitochondrial antioxidant called tempol, which is very hard to find, but worth reading about.

 

[blueberry]

@blueberry I'm sorry to hear you have been fighting a viral infection. Please keep posting your experience. My experience with a virus was similar. The things that normally impact my energy (such as a virus), still have an impact even when I'm on the grapefruit juice and Ubiquinol.

@blueberry I love the way you describe "Giddy on the sweet taste of having some energy in the evening." That's a perfect way of describing it. There are times I am giddy because I now have energy. To go from debilitating fatigue to having some energy is like a choir of angels coming down and singing. People who don't have debilitating fatigue could never understand the impact and joy that comes with energy.

What I have noticed is that this week and last week I was able to do two things that I used to love that I haven't been doing since the relapse. The first one is visiting charity/thrift shops (I found an amazing faux-leopard fur jacket!) and the second is crafting. This is since trying the protocol. That's measurable progress. It's Saturday, late morning, and I'm in bed, and that's normal for me on a Saturday. I manage to work 18 hrs a week (built up from 4 hrs in August last year). I love my work but it does use up nearly all my energy. The fact that I have been able to add in two of my favourite activities, without a major worsening of symptoms, is amazing. I'll be honest, I probably work more than I "should" and 75% of the time I'm not working, I'm resting. But I count myself very lucky indeed to be able to work at all. To be able to re-engage with some of my hobbies again is wonderful. One day, I hope to have enough energy to go out and flaunt the new jacket! Thanks @BeautifulDay .......you pointed me in the right direction to make a small but meaningful change, and those little changes are gigantic in terms of quality of life

 

[andyguitar]

The changes you report @blueberry sound very significant to me. It's not just a simple increase in energy levels is it? Cognitive function must have improved to if you are able to do crafting. Not to sure exactly what that is but sounds as if it requires a high degree of concentration and spacial skill.

 

[blueberry]

Not sure about the skill @andyguitar! Just making Easter decorations but you're quite right, I didn't have the concentration or the inclination before.

 

[sissypop]

Second day of coq10 and grapefruit. Went back to bed after taking it first thing morning, but only for 1 1/2 hours.

Might not be a good time for me to trial it either. I haven't slept well for a while now and am very tired. I did slept pretty well last night and my naps.

 

[Pink]

I can't take grapefruit bec it will have a dangerous interaction w a medicine I must take.
I did try a pqq/coq10 blend but didn't see any benefit. Is there a diff brand to try?would a liquid work better than a gelcap?

 

[Murph]

In the interest of science, allow me to pre-register the fact I ordered ubiquinol and just took it with some pink grapefruit cordial. feel standard/normal for now. will report results either way!

 

[sissypop]

Since this appears to make me drowsy I'm going to take this tonight. Although I'm not sure when to take it, I want to stay awake for Marshall WVU March Madness.

 

[Alvin2]

Here is a question, does the grapefruit take effect if taken at the same time as the Q10 or does it work for doses taken hours later after its absorbed into the body. If i understand correctly your taking the juice/Q10 several times a day so could it be that the juice affects the next Q10 instead of the concurrent one?

 

[Murph]

In the interest of science, allow me to pre-register the fact I ordered ubiquinol and just took it with some pink grapefruit cordial. feel standard/normal for now. will report results either way!

Seven hours later and I've had a good day.

Not outside the boundaries of a sample of my usual days, but a bit better than average in terms of focus. I've sat inside on the computer all day, mostly working.

need a bigger sample size to draw any real conclusions but certainly don't feel worse!

 

[pamojja]

Seven hours later and I've had a good day.

If I may ask, how much ubiquinol you used yesterday?

 

[sissypop]

I did not have a good night at all. I don't know if coq10 and grapefruit juice played much of a role though.

I stayed up too late and it seems when I do that then I'm awake really really late and can't fall asleep. Then when I do fall asleep I wake up a lot.

I feel terrible this morning and have a headache. I've had a lot of nights like this lately though.

 

[ljimbo423]

6 – 8 hours after ingestion: Q10 peaks in the venous blood
Dr. William Judy of the SIBR Research Institute explains that the Q10 enters the blood in the form of ubiquinol. The reason that the Q10 takes 6 – 8 hours to reach its peak concentration in the blood is that the flow of the lymph is relatively slow.

24 hours after ingestion: a second smaller Q10 peak appears
Approximately 24 hours after ingestion, a second smaller peak concentration of Q10 appears. It is thought that the second peak in the blood Q10 concentration graph is caused by the uptake of some of the Q10 from the blood into the liver and, then, by the subsequent secretion back into the blood.

33 hours after ingestion: elimination half-life of Q10
Somewhere between 30 and 35 hours is the typical elimination half-life of the ingested Coenzyme Q10.

7 – 10 days after ingestion: 90% steady-state Q10 concentration
After approximately 7 – 10 days of ubiquinone Q10 supplementation, a 90% level of the steady-state Coenzyme Q10 concentration in the blood will be reached. After 10 – 14 days, steady-state levels will be seen in blood plasma. There will be, of course, considerable variation from individual to individual and from group to group.

30% – 40% increase in brain mitochondrial Q10 levels
In animal studies (mice), researchers have seen a 30%–40% increase in cerebral cortex mitochondrial concentrations of CoQ9 and CoQ10 after 12 months of supplementation.

This is evidence that Coenzyme Q10 does cross the blood-brain barrier.

http://www.q10facts.com/key-coenzyme-q10-numbers/

I have experienced a BIG increase in energy in the last 3 weeks, after going up from 100 to 400mg coq10 a day and a dramatic reduction in PEM. Both a reduction in the intensity of PEM and the duration! I'm not taking grapefruit with it either.

I have noticed my biggest increase in energy after about 6-8 hours of taking a 400mg dose of coq10.

Which is when it reaches it's peak blood level. There is a whole page of coq10 facts on the page in the link I posted.

Jim

 

[andyguitar]

Thanks for posting that @ljimbo423. As reports on the value of taking grapefruit vary I am wondering if some of the effect is due to the grapefruit on its own. From having a look in some books about herbal medicine one thing stands out. Its effect on insulin levels. As it lowers it slightly that should mean a slight rise in blood sugar levels and more energy. There is also a question about the other effects of Q10 on Dopamine. Not wanting to be devils advocate, but I do wonder if the 'energy increase' is a red herring and the theraputic value of Q10 has more to do with it's effect on Dopamine. But whatever is going on we can at least say it's a @BeautifulDay to be a @blueberry !

 

[ljimbo423]

There is also a question about the other effects of Q10 on Dopamine. Not wanting to be devils advocate, but I do wonder if the 'energy increase' is a red herring and the theraputic value of Q10 has more to do with it's effect on Dopamine.

There could be an increase in dopamine from coq10 that also gives an increase in energy.

The mounting scientific evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction though, in cfs and the big role coq10 plays in increasing oxidative phosphorylation and ATP in the mitochondria leads me to think that's where most of the benefits come from.

If the dysfunctional mitochondria are the primary cause of fatigue in cfs, like Robert Naviaux thinks. That could explain why myself and some others are getting a big improvement in fatigue and PEM from coq10.

Jim