1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
In Brief: The Adrenal Glands and ME
The second in a new series of ‘In Brief’ articles, where Andrew Gladman provides a helpful insight into the science behind fairly common topics, exploring how they relate to ME/CFS. This time he discusses the adrenal glands and why they can be such a talking point ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

How to untrap a methyl trap

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by DKnickerbocker, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA
    @DKnickerbocker


    The Homosystiene levels could just indicate blood clots.. Interesting enough I had a test result that showed a glucose reading of 101 as well.. No risk factor of diabetes and I am an in shape 24 year old male, Though I think mine happened from the physical stress of lyme disease and inflammation.. stress can often raise levels pretty high but does not warrant any damage or issues with glucose control, Still I would avoid all simple carbohydrates and sugars for the time being, any sugar, white bread, potatos, white rice, etc...

    Like I said before man I think your issue is also stemming from lyme disease like me as a lot of stuff you mentioned can be very symptomatic of lyme.. It also causes blood clots from spirochates blocking blood vessels, some people even get heart attacks and strokes as a result of this... The only way to know if you have it for sure is to go to an LLMD and get tested through IgeneX which is the only test sensitive enough to really pick up antibodies.

    I think if I were you I would just stick with at least some high dose methyl b12, and high dose methyl folate for the time being... If you have methyl trap then waiting around and not treating it can make it more drawn out.. There is no reason you really need to wait either.

    You may have fired up the methylation process with the supplements, and then didn't use enough folate or caused a methyl trap in someway leading to severe inflammation, thus triggering a re activation of the lyme disease you mentioned before.. In my theory.. Seems to follow a similar track of what happened to me as well..

    Take my input seriously though and get tested for Lyme, this is not something you want to wait around and see what happens with.


    On top of everything else it may help you if you could get a full body MRI scan to see whats going under the surface fully.... This can pick up on a lot of different things that could be causing you issues, remember all disease stems in a state of inflammation so this shows in some tests.
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA
  3. mgd1972

    mgd1972

    Messages:
    44
    Likes:
    0
    I've noticed an improvement with the higher doses of folate and potassium. I've been taking 3200 mcg of folate first thing in the morning, followed an hour later by 5 mg mb12 and 10 mg of adb12. I notice an intense buzzy headache as soon as the b12s start dissolving. Any ideas what this means? It goes away eventually, although comes back a bit in waves over the day. I've been taking 3200 mcg of folate about 4 or 5 times a day, and 1000 mg of potassium about 4 or 5 times a day, not at the same times as the folate so I'm always taking something! I take another 5 mg mb12 in the afternoon. Today I think I will up the mb12 to 15 mg as you suggest. Does all of this sound like I'm on the right track?

    @Freddd, I'm curious to know if you agree with Martial's recommended approach, and any thoughts on the buzz I get from the b12s. Do I need to up folate perhaps?
  4. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA

    Good sounds like you are doing everything right!! You definitely have high enough doses to neutralize any trappings so long as you avoid the other common methyl trap offenders!

    You can do 10mg of mb12 if you want too, whatever is helpful... Definitely using enough potassium as well.. I am also curious what are you using for your source of folate and potassium? The folate can start to get expensive quick when you use smaller doses.. This is why I am trying to purchase the 5mthf serving size, thats 5mg a pill rather then 400, 800, or 1
  5. mgd1972

    mgd1972

    Messages:
    44
    Likes:
    0
    I'm using Solgar 800 mcg, so yes I'm swallowing a lot of pills. The potassium is potassium citrate, and in lower doses never bothered my stomach but I do feel a bit of burn now so I try to take it with food. I will try to find the other kind this week. What do you recommend? Have you found a 5 mg folate? I have some Thorne 1 mg ones that I was taking before I tried Solgar. Not sure if the brands matter for folate like they do for b12. Thanks for your help. I'm feeling a bit better already but I get these spacey headaches from time to time.
    Can you explain a bit more about the other methyl trap offenders? What are the other forms of folic acid? Do I need to watch what I eat or just supplements? I don't take anything with folic acid but I do eat veggies including greens. I don't eat grains or starch, so I need veg for carbs!
    Also what is NAC? Is whey protein in dairy products (yogurt, cheese) or just processed stuff?
    Thanks again!!
  6. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes:
    104
    @Freddd @Martial
    Hello again. Thanks for both of your patience and diligence in assisting me. I'm so very thankful.

    I have been a figuring after reading this thread.

    My recent 3lb weight gain seems to have came about after adding some veggies (no greens - just celery, peppers, and tomatoes) back in to my diet & a small amount of brown organic rice.

    I can exercise, as long as I'm smart about it, otherwise I will get too much PEM. So I'm back on the calorie/carb counting train, to try to aide in getting a grip on this weight gain. I know some of it is muscle, as I'm having increased strength & endurance when I exercise.

    I have a hunch that the veggies/rice are = extra folate in my diet.

    Two questions:

    a) Methyl-trap: I think maybe I might have it going on. I'm on 2.5mg of methyfolate, 15mg adenosyl-B12, and 2mg of methylB12. I'm taking about 3oomg of potassium gluconate right now. I know I probably need more, but I can't take more now due to increased agitation when taking more. When I tried introducing more methylfolate I just started to feel really crappy. So I thought I would work on increasing my B12s (methyl & adenosyl) & see if it helps. I'm definitely feeling better, but the weight gain has continued.

    I haven't been using the brandnames of methylfolate and B12 suggested by Freddd I'm going to change to those names soon.

    So do I have this right?
    Methyl trap = situation where one has too much methylfolate in relation to methylB12 and vice versa? There is some exchange of the methyl molecule between them & when this can't happen then one gets a buildup of the other?

    b) Dietary folate. The problem is that I may lack the ability to turn it into a usable form. But how does adding more methylfolate help?
    Thanks for any info anyone can add to these questions. I think I'm sloooowwwwlllly getting it :)
    S
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA

    Solgar makes a 1mg version and there are a few different brands that offer the 5mg version which are all usually labeled as 5mthf, look carefully at dosage though! A quick google search will pull them up!.. From what I have seen they look very high quality as well, though Fred highly endorses Solgar based on a long experience with the product.. It just gets expensive for me personally..

    folinic acid supplements, and folic acid supplements, also folic acid fortified foods like certain kinds of breads and grains, cold cereal, some protein and nutrition bars, just be sure to look at labels when you purchase groceries. Folate from vegetables is the bio available form, folic acid is a synthetic man made form of folate and this is what causes trapping. Too much veggies also causes some issues with supplemental folate being held onto, usually pretty benign but this is with ALOT of veggies lol, Fred would usually suggest just take a bit more folate in this case in supplement form.. usually an extra 1mg-3mg does it well.

    Nac is a supplement that raises glutathione levels in the body, it interferes and takes cobalt away from the new cell growth to create more glutathione.. The methylation protocol is already meant to raise the bodies natural production of glutathione as is, so supplemental glutathione creates an overload. Whey protein powder is isolated and extracted from the by product of certain processing of cheeses, and milk, its a supplemental powder usually used for weight training. It is not naturally found in dairy products. Just look out for things that are fortified with whey protein like nutrition or protein bars for example. so NAC, Whey Protien, Folic Acid, folinic acid "another supplement form of folic ", and any glutathione pre cursor supplements, or shots are all the things to watch out for..

    The headaches are usually transient as the body creates a bigger production of cells from the added supplements.. People that are b12 deficient always talk about the migraines that occur as soon as they start injection or supplemental therapy, this is a sign of healing!

    Yes be careful with potassium and make sure to take it with plenty of water and food, it can be pretty harsh on the stomach!
    mgd1972 likes this.
  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA


    You are on too low of a dose of methyl folate compared to the other b12's also too small an amount of the methyl b12, usually adding in extra b12 helps to reverse folate deficiency, as well as taking enough methyl folate, I would shoot for at least 10,000mg of the methyl b12 and 10,000mg of folate. In this case you would know for sure that your completely covered in avoiding any further trapping and reverse any current trapping. You are also going to need more potassium as a result at least if you don't get enough from diet then trying to add enough in supplemental form.. you can also raise levels by consuming a higher amount of potassium comparative to salt in your diet, this can be pretty helpful. Now brand name has a potassium salt supplement that has higher doses per serving which can make it easier to get.. Just make sure to take plenty of water and eat with it because it can be hard on the stomach.

    Methyl trap as paradoxical folate deficiency is when the folate actually gets "kicked out" of cells as the sudden intake of more b12's compared to folate amount push it out of cells for absorption.. They are both dependent on each other for production so it is important to take similar amounts of both.. The opposite of methyl folate trap that can be common is when people with severe b12 anemia use folate to raise levels without b12 and get worsening b12 deficiency.


    Natural forms of folate usually do not have issues of turning into useful form as they are already the bio available forms, its folic acid that some people usually have an issue converting. Too much veggies can hinder the use of methyl folate supplements though so if you over do the veggies its important to also raise the amount of methyl folate supplements a bit..
    Star-Anise likes this.
  9. mgd1972

    mgd1972

    Messages:
    44
    Likes:
    0
    Thank you!!

    I don't eat any grains or processed food of any kind so I should have no trouble avoiding these things. Thanks again.
  10. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

    Messages:
    297
    Likes:
    123
    @Star-Anise: o' course you know I'm no expert but am sloooowly getting all this, like you. Been having some interesting things going on the last few days that may be entirely due to life circumstances. OR my regimen may be making the life circumstances seem worse than they are.

    Anyway...my understanding is that once you build up the adenosylcobalamin in your cells, that form you don't have to keep up high dose. You can come down to a maintenance dose with no problem. I have been finding that after my initial large doses of 10000mg/day for a couple weeks, I now feel much better at about 2.5mg/day. More helps to make me kind of "speedy", but not in the really good way.

    MeCbl is different since it's a lot more transient in the bloodstream and cells. It clears fast and doesn't store well the way AdCbl does. MeCbl you might want to try a little more of per day. You may have reached saturation with AdCbl so might want to try maintenance.

    Methylfolate is already usable by the body when you take it. Problem with folinic acid in veggies and folic acid is that they must be broken down before your body can use them. So if you're not able to break them down they just hang around in the bloodstream causing trouble. I think they can also block the action of the usable methylfolate that *is* available, although I'm not sure of the exact blocking mechanism. But this is why taking more methylfolate can be a good thing while taking in more folinic acid or folic acid might not be.

    Hope that helps a little bit, and that Martial and Freddd can help shed a little bit more light. From my experience it might not be a bad thing to try more methylfolate and stop the veggies/rice, just to see what happens.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  11. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes:
    104
    @whodathunkit & everyone else that has been so very helpful xoxo
    Well I tried more methylfolate today & felt okay. Up to 3mg today, will keep titrating up. I think I'll hold B12s for now. And then as @whodathunkit & @Martial has suggested increase the methylB12 in relation to the adenosylB12.
    To be honest, I was like, hmmm should I increase methylfolate...hmmm, then I looked in the mirror & I had evidence of angular chelitis on my face, & neck, all on the left side! Just noticed before bed! I had never heard of this prior to reading about it in Freddd's posts. So I was like, this methylfolate has to go up! :D
    Once again, THANKS everyone :cool: :p
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    804
    Likes:
    400
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    Yay Star!:balloons:
    Star-Anise likes this.
  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

    Messages:
    297
    Likes:
    123
    @Star-Anise, let us know how you proceed and what happens. Good luck!

    I myself just realized after googling some images that I've been having minor cheilitis (although not in my mouth corners). Looks like cheilitis is also another way of saying "idiopathic chapped lips" (meaning not from the weather or dehydration), LOL. Some of the images are breathtakingly severe. Ouch.

    Also, my old buddy eczema has popped up on one of my fingers again. I've had problems with eczema since I was a very young child. When I was a kid it was "fold dermatitis" in the bend of my elbow, then it went away for some years in adolescence, and then migrated to my hands in early adulthood. Sometimes it's precipitated by contact with something I have a reaction to, sometimes it appears for no apparent reason (i.e., inflammation). Historically, it comes and goes...thankfully it's not constant. I'm still taking megadose methylfolate as well as lots of B-12 so I don't see how it could possibly be a deficiency of either of those things. So I, too, am going to chalk it up to the donut hole/healing and keep at this dose to see what happens. No other symptoms but these two things and a little anxiety (which could be caused by life circumstances as things are unsettled now). Hopefully it will all pass in time.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  14. TSoule

    TSoule

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    0
    Oregon
  15. TSoule

    TSoule

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    0
    Oregon
    Hello--I'm a serious newbie so am not sure I'm even posting correctly----but who should not take N-AC or Glutathione or whey?
  16. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    619
    Likes:
    421
    Ventura, CA
    Glutathione reduces the levels of cobalt in the body, causing a deficiency in methylation. Nac is a glutathione booster and works in the same way, Whey protein takes the energy out of the cells to help process itself in the body I believe, Whey is great for a supplement. However if you are on methylation protocol it is best to avoid it, but some can process it better I have heard. I think it really comes down to the gene mutations each person has to deal with to an extent.
    helen1 and TSoule like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page