How to lower norepinephrine

[dbkita]

I was warm, but not sweating. They are always after falling asleep, usually 1-3am. They're very inconsistent, I've not had one for 2 weeks. I did have alcohol before bed, but I don't see how that could cause it 4 hours later, my liver should have taken care of it by then. It could conceivably be caused by nightmare I suppose - I wouldn't know as I have absolutely zero dream recall.

I was thinking sleep apnea actually.

 

[xjhuez]

I was thinking sleep apnea actually.

Could be. Pretty sure my wife would have told me that I snore/gasp for breath at this point, though.

 

[greenshots]

This was probably mentioned but SAMe balances nor epi & dopamine. Depending on your COMT/VDR you can use lower doses(50-100) if needed. Its also the body's main methyl donor.

 

[dbkita]

Could be. Pretty sure my wife would have told me that I snore/gasp for breath at this point, though.

Hypopneas (as opposed to apneas) don't often involve snoring. But I hear you.
If you wake up with night sweats that is a classic NE surge symptom.

 

[Lotus97]

This was probably mentioned but SAMe balances nor epi & dopamine. Depending on your COMT/VDR you can use lower doses(50-100) if needed. Its also the body's main methyl donor.

Does taking TMG do the same thing?

 

[dbkita]

Does taking TMG do the same thing?

BHMT stimulation actually biases towards NE and away from DA. No one knows why but the tell-tale
sign is the changes in the relative distribution of catecholamine metabolites.

 

[Lotus97]

BHMT stimulation actually biases towards NE and away from DA. No one knows why but the tell-tale
sign is the changes in the relative distribution of catecholamine metabolites.

Oh ok. I figured since TMG increases SAMe it work too.

 

[ttt]

I know I'm 5 weeks late to this discussion, but I have to say that I sooooo appreciate this thread. I've read all of your posts eagerly. I'd love to throw out a couple of questions for anyone who can answer them.

dbkita, you mentioned that BHMT stimulation biases toward NE and away from DA. Ignorant question -- what is DA? As for BHMT stimulation, do you mean supporting the BHMT pathway? I have been trying to add Yasko's ACAT/BHMT formula, and I keep getting so manic (meaning super-high NE) that I have to stop. But I'm not sure how else to get the short cut through the methionine cycle going.

xjhuez, you mentioned the 1-3am awakenings. I have the same thing. I wake up with my heart racing, and it takes 2-3 hours to get back to sleep. I often sweat during that time, and it feels like I'm on cocaine. Why is that?

 

[Lotus97]

I know I'm 5 weeks late to this discussion, but I have to say that I sooooo appreciate this thread. I've read all of your posts eagerly. I'd love to throw out a couple of questions for anyone who can answer them.

dbkita, you mentioned that BHMT stimulation biases toward NE and away from DA. Ignorant question -- what is DA? As for BHMT stimulation, do you mean supporting the BHMT pathway? I have been trying to add Yasko's ACAT/BHMT formula, and I keep getting so manic (meaning super-high NE) that I have to stop. But I'm not sure how else to get the short cut through the methionine cycle going.

xjhuez, you mentioned the 1-3am awakenings. I have the same thing. I wake up with my heart racing, and it takes 2-3 hours to get back to sleep. I often sweat during that time, and it feels like I'm on cocaine. Why is that?

DA is dopamine. I sometimes don't always understand dbkita's abbreviation. I don't know much about the BHMT pathway, but TMG, betaine hcl, choline, phosphatidylserine, and Seriphos will all stimulate the BHMT pathway. Are you doing methylation now? Because that can cause overstimulation for several reasons.

 

[ttt]

Are you doing methylation now? Because that can cause overstimulation for several reasons.

Yes, I'm doing methylation. Using Yasko's protocol. How can that cause overstimulation?

 

[bertiedog]

I know I'm 5 weeks late to this discussion, but I have to say that I sooooo appreciate this thread. I've read all of your posts eagerly. I'd love to throw out a couple of questions for anyone who can answer them.

xjhuez, you mentioned the 1-3am awakenings. I have the same thing. I wake up with my heart racing, and it takes 2-3 hours to get back to sleep. I often sweat during that time, and it feels like I'm on cocaine. Why is that?

This can be a typical symptom of low blood sugar (or the body acting like your blood sugar is too low when in fact it is ok). This can be caused by the wrong diet for you, ie too many carbs and not enough protein and good fats and/or low cortisol.

The first thing to try would be to try and change your diet to an Atkins type diet and always have a small snack before you go to bed.

Pam

 

[Lotus97]

Yes, I'm doing methylation. Using Yasko's protocol.

What dosages are you taking? And did you notice an increase in symptoms after starting methylation?

How can that cause overstimulation?

Some people think it might be due to low potassium since supplementing with potassium sometimes relieve their symptoms. Rich thought it was due to excitotoxicity from a drop in glutathione in the astrocytes which led to increased glutamate. Methylation increases catecholamines (norepinephrine, dopamine, and epinephrine). Methylation can cause toxins to be released which would result in excitotoxicity. Methylation can also cause/exacerbate inflammation which might also cause symptoms.

 

[Lotus97]

Dr. Yasko has also said the "fight or flight" response could be due to CBS issues, but I think dbkita was challenging that theory. I'm not exactly sure what his response to that was. He posted about it a thread he created "A couple of questions".

 

[ttt]

This can be a typical symptom of low blood sugar (or the body acting like your blood sugar is too low when in fact it is ok). This can be caused by the wrong diet for you, ie too many carbs and not enough protein and good fats and/or low cortisol.

The first thing to try would be to try and change your diet to an Atkins type diet and always have a small snack before you go to bed.

Pam

Thanks, Pam. I'm already doing an Atkins type diet. I'm getting about 35-40% of my calories from very low glycemic carbs. And lots of good fats, including right before bed so that I can stabilize my blood sugar. There is definitely something screwy about my blood sugar, but I think it's NE-related. I notice that the higher my norepinephrine is, the higher my fasting blood sugar is. I think the NE makes it difficult for the cell membrane to take in the sugar. My waking/fasting blood sugar is always higher than my bedtime blood sugar.

 

[ttt]

What dosages are you taking? And did you notice an increase in symptoms after starting methylation?

Dosages of what? I'm taking over 100 supplements. Yasko is not the simplest of protocols. As for increase in symptoms, it's really hard to say, because I'm so all over the map, and there are so many confounding variables. There are certain supplements that I know caused an increase in symptoms when I tried adding them, so I stopped. And certain ones that eased things up a bit.

Some people think it might be due to low potassium since supplementing with potassium sometimes relieve their symptoms. Rich thought it was due to excitotoxicity from a drop in glutathione in the astrocytes which led to increased glutamate. Methylation increases catecholamines (norepinephrine, dopamine, and epinephrine). Methylation can cause toxins to be released which would result in excitotoxicity. Methylation can also cause/exacerbate inflammation which might also cause symptoms.

This is really interesting. I have some potassium on order that should be here in a few days. I'm a little nervous to take it, because my adrenals are totally shot, and I've heard that potassium is bad for adrenals (and I have ridiculously huge salt cravings).

How does methylation increase catecholamines? Do you mean via the shortcut to methionine? Also, would love to know how methylation causes/exacerbates inflammation. I definitely am inflamed all over.

Although I do have high glutamate, I'm pretty sure that the amped feeling I'm having is mostly from the NE, not the glutamate.

 

[Emootje]

There is definitely something screwy about my blood sugar, but I think it's NE-related. I notice that the higher my norepinephrine is, the higher my fasting blood sugar is. I think the NE makes it difficult for the cell membrane to take in the sugar.

I think your right, NE impairs insulin release and thus making it difficult for the the cell to take in the glucose.

 

[greenshots]

I just want to say that its easy for me or anyone else to question someone elses theories but until we have our own clinical data with hundreds or thousands of patients, its all just sorta armchair quarter backing. I used to do this with Cutler, James, Yasko, Vank, and many more and then I learned how little I knew outside of books and research. Fact is, we can research all we want and not come close to what actually happens to people in the real world of practicing this medicine.

My doc often says something I like thats sorta like this "people don't blindly follow all the symptoms we learn about, you have to be willing to open your mind to heal them"

 

[adreno]

This is really interesting. I have some potassium on order that should be here in a few days. I'm a little nervous to take it, because my adrenals are totally shot, and I've heard that potassium is bad for adrenals (and I have ridiculously huge salt cravings).

Potassium isn't "bad for the adrenals". It's just that with low aldosterone you will need more salt than potassium. But when you start methylation, this ratio may shift so you need a little more potassium than usual. Potassium actually stimulates aldosterone release, whereas salt inhibits it.

 

[xjhuez]

xjhuez, you mentioned the 1-3am awakenings. I have the same thing. I wake up with my heart racing, and it takes 2-3 hours to get back to sleep. I often sweat during that time, and it feels like I'm on cocaine. Why is that?

I wish I knew. I guessed at NE, but I have no evidence.

I rarely ever sleep through the night without some sort of issue. About once every 2-3 weeks I'll wake as you describe, to a racing heart fight or flight response, and those are disturbing. However most of my nighttime wake-ups are mind racing to a greater or lesser degree, with no physical symptoms. Reading or productive thinking is impossible when it's bad, and I find that playing video games is the best answer - not because I necessarily want to, but because it keeps my mind otherwise engaged and stops me from rumination. It has gotten a little better since I improved my diet (mostly eliminating certain things), started B12 and yucca. Supplements that are supposed to help with sleep like melatonin, GABA, magnesium, etc. haven't really helped me at all.

 

[Lotus97]

I just want to say that its easy for me or anyone else to question someone elses theories but until we have our own clinical data with hundreds or thousands of patients, its all just sorta armchair quarter backing. I used to do this with Cutler, James, Yasko, Vank, and many more and then I learned how little I knew outside of books and research. Fact is, we can research all we want and not come close to what actually happens to people in the real world of practicing this medicine.

My doc often says something I like thats sorta like this "people don't blindly follow all the symptoms we learn about, you have to be willing to open your mind to heal them"

I also question Rich and dbkita's theories too, but since I don't understand this stuff that well I think I need to be even more skeptical. I wish I knew what was causing my flight-or-fight response. Maybe it is partially CBS. Maybe it is POTS/OI. Maybe it is norepinephrine. Even if it's at least partially caused by norepinephrine I still don't know what's causing it.

If CBS is partially to blame then that requires me making both dietary and supplemental changes. I don't like changing my supplements if I've already purchased them because it's a waste of money (unless they truly are making a huge negative impact on my health). So if there's some doubt as to whether or not the theory about CBS causing fight or flight is 100% accurate or not I would like to know because it affects a lot of my actions. There's all sorts of protocols and/or rules and everyone seems to have different ones. Gluten, dairy, salicylates, latex (in foods), omega 3/omega 6 balance, magnesium stearate, candida, Paleo. There's only so many "rules" I'm able to follow at once. Maybe the CBS theory is valid, but the CBS protocol is just one more set of rules that I must follow.