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How to do a Gallbladder/Liver Flush (Gallstones/Calfication of Gallbladder)

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by prioris, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I've had this information just sitting around for a while so decided to post it even though I'm not done. I planned to do 7 flushes but have only done two. Hopefully I will get around to it. I have been side tracked by other organs that need attention.

    While I was doing this flush, I realized I had Hepatic Steatosis which I was able to cure quickly. Here is a link.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-type-2-diabetes-mitochondrial-disease.51786/

    My goal with this post is to bring together a lot of scattered information on internet regarding gallbladder/liver flushes. You won't find anything like this on the internet. I also want to demystify and simplify the presentation of the information. The other goal is to save your gallbladder from ever being removed. So here goes.


    There are many other liver / gallbladder flushes from around the world but I know nothing about them.

    I found this interesting link on stool color
    # Stool color will tell you if liver or gallbladder is problem
    http://drdnaturopath.com/gallbladder-bile-deficiency-and-high-cholesterol/


    =====================================================================
    IN A NUTSHELL - here is an example of what I did do
    =====================================================================
    PHASE 1 Day 1-4 to soften stones
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    My daily ritual for 4Xday for 4 days was while stomach empty ...

    I poured out one cup of juice. Swallowed 500mg malic acid (you can add more) with sip of juice.
    I added 50 drops of phosphoric acid in juice and drank with straw
    I swished/rinsed my mouth out with baking soda water
    =====================================================================


    =====================================================================
    PHASE 2 Day 5 to PURGE COLON (and relax bile duct), FLUSH STONES OUT
    my objective was to do flush 10 hours after waking up
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Continue Phase 1 ritual thru 5th day
    Stop eating 9 hours before flush


    PURGE/RELAX
    4 hours after after last eating and before flush, take 1-2 tablespoon epsom salt in glass of water (after epsom salt dissolved i put ice cubes in it to cool it)

    2-3 hours later, drink epsom salt again

    FLUSH
    2 hours later begin FLUSH
    Wait a minimum of 4-10 hours after last meal of day before doing flush
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DRINK THIS
    6 ounces of olive oil (what forces the liver to spasm and force stones out)
    1-2 lemons or large fresh grapefruit (improves taste)
    Combine all ingredients in a quart jar; shake well and drink it down relatively quickly.

    I swished/rinsed my mouth out with baking soda water and spit out

    Lie on right side (with pillow under right hip) and bring right knee as close to chest as possible for at least 30 minutes (time is mandatory)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    YOUR DONE so do anything you want
    Stay near bathroom in case you need to go




    ************************************************************************
    The purpose of this section is to give you a birds eye view of what's
    out there and circumvent information overload which can be overwhelming.


    This is a synopsis of what my research has compiled on flushing the liver/gallbladder of sludge, gravel and stones. The first phase of a flush is softening the stones. The second phase is flushing.
    ************************************************************************
    ===========================================================
    DURING MEALS (OPTIONAL-This is what I added so you can skip it)

    I wanted to help clean my bile of sludge to stop any new formations
    and help break down things more naturally
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    General Liver/Gallbladder formula – one capsule / day

    SILIPHOS is silybin attached to phospholipid choline which is at least 10X or more absorbable than regular milk thistle. Therapeutic dose in research is 5 mg / kg. (THIS IS WHAT I USE)

    TUDCA is an UDCA that is the active component of Ox Bile. It increases flow and detoxes – 13.5 mg / kg is ideal dosage (THIS IS WHAT I'D USE IF SILIPHOS DIDN'T EXIST)

    Bile salts / Ox bile – experiment with dosage
    Beet Root (for a vegetarian)

    Ox Bile increases/adds bile. It gets converted to UDCA thru gut bacteria.
    Ox Bile may help to prevent against formation of stones along with dissolving of gallstones
    D-limonene is one of the most common monoterpenes in nature.
    Milk Thistle and Dandelion will increase bile production


    ============================================================
    HERE IS SOME BASIC INFO
    ************************************************************************
    FIRST PHASE Take on empty stomach except where noted. Wait 30 minutes.
    Options to help break or dissolve stones in liver/gallbladder

    Some people skip phase one and are successful but the stones probably already soft.

    ************************************************************************
    Targets/Soften (most common) cholesterol stones
    You won't find this list anywhere on internet
    ************************************************************************
    Gold Coin Grass (Jin Qian Cao) - breaks up bundled stones
    Malic Acid - Soften stones
    Phosphoric Acid (i took with mallic acid capsules)
    TUDCA (take right after meal)
    Rowachol (monoterpene) Used in Europe. German formula. 1st ingredient is pinene
    D-Limonene (monoterpene, take with meal)
    ???Pure Gum Turpentine (no reports on this) this is a pinene also
    Chinese Bitters This will help bile production and flow. Note that Swedish Bitters have a different purpose and not the one to get.
    Curcumin helps with contraction of GallBladder

    ************************************************************************
    Targets calcified/pigment stones (empty stomach)
    ************************************************************************
    Chanca Piedra
    Chamomile
    Enteric peppermint oil caps
    ************************************************************************

    Personally, I would just keep it simple and use Malic acid and Chanca Piedra capsules
    but just to know those other things exist is useful.


    ************************************************************************
    SECOND PHASE
    Flush is done mixing the olive oil with juice from a lemon.
    Also Epsom Salt to prepare. You will need to do many flushes.
    I use 1 tablespoon 4 hours and 2 hours before flush

    Personally, I don't eat anything the day of the flush. I try to
    prepare my colon couple days before by eating more moderately
    ************************************************************************
    Epsom Salt - VERY IMPORTANT to do before and after flush
    Olive oIl - 4 oz
    Lemon juice - helps for flavor 1/2 cup (I just buy pure lemon juice from store)

    Optional: Coca Cola - 10 oz+6oz oil+1/2 cup lemonjuice ( phosphoric content may help with nausea.) Has has to be a cola. I wouldn't do this again. I'd stick with basic stuff.
    ************************************************************************


    ************************************************************************
    Post Flush like 6-8 hours after flush
    ************************************************************************
    Epsom Salt maybe a couple more times to help expel stones
    I don't like to take too much epsom salt so I take less.
    Take tablespoons after 8 hours and another 2 hours after wards. This
    will help expel any stones.
    ************************************************************************

    ========================================================================
    Possible problems and work arounds (even if rare, good to know)
    ************************************************************************
    If something caught in colon and nausea doesn't pass

    Colonic or Home Colonic (Colenz) to help expel stones
    ************************************************************************
    If something caught in bilary duct

    Take Epsom salt to relax bilary duct to allow it to come thru
    Optional addition: Take Gold Coin Grass
    Optional addition: Take Phosphoric Acid
    *************************************************************

    *************************************************************
    MY THOUGHTS ON WHY PEOPLE FLUSH DON'T GET GOOD FLUSHES
    There is a report out there that a combination of
    GCG + Chinese Bitters + Curcuma + Cogan??? will produce good flushes taken 1 hour before flush. I think the important ingredients are the Bitters and Curcuma. I think some people may not produce enough bile and their gallbladder doesn't contract well. It would help expel out the crud from the liver and galbladder. Those two herbs would seem to do the job.This is just my current thoughts.
    *************************************************************

    *************************************************************
    frequency of liver flush.
    Here is Moritz thoughts


    My thoughts are that it depends. If one isn't getting many stones out then
    not much from your liver to recover from then one can do it much more frequently
    If you have flushes where you get a ton of stones out then waiting
    10 days or so makes sense. If after getting many stones out, your not
    producing any then wait 3-4 weeks to allow crud from back of the
    liver to move to the front. Some people do multiple flushes in one day. Also a factor is how many nutrients like milk thistle etc is one feeding the liver so many factors. This is something each individual has to eyeball.

    *************************************************************
    Are there gallstones in the liver ?

    About 3%-4% of people with no gallbladders do develop blockages in their bilary duct. I'd like to see autopsy reports on livers and what was found inside.

    Gallstone can be made up of bundles of smaller stones. Smaller stones
    made up of gravel and gravel resulting from sludge etc. Whether one
    answers yes or no may be a definition game of what constitutes a stone.
    So maybe technically you can be correct no matter how you answer.

    People who do a lot of actual liver vivisection/autopsies etc should have the definitive answer of what has been found inside.

    From a practical perspective, I view gallstones as a process. Under the right conditions, these stones can form. Doesn't matter when it becomes an official stone to someone else. I'd rather stop the process at the gravel or sludge stage in the liver. I want a clean and flowing healthy bile along with good bile production but I also need to undo existing damage and then preventative.

    I'm not sure whether one needs to completely clean it. Many people live with stones their entire life. It's about making the liver and gallbladder function more healthy and having it impact positively on your current health problems. once the liver and gallbladder problems calm down then it becomes less urgent and adopt a more gradual approach.

    *************************************************************

    *************************************************************
    Should I have my gallbladder removed ?

    You should fight like heck to keep your gallbladder and any other organ the doctor says needs to be removed because you end up trading one problem for many other problems and that can't be undone. This means you don't roll over and give up at the slightest failure. I sense that is what happens to some people who do try some remedies and did surgery. Like pain pill, they are looking for a quick solution and doctor falsely gives reassurance that everything will be ok. Moritz said that one person had no stones until the 7th flush. One anecdotal report had gallbladder pain increase until flush number 10 but that is rare too. It takes persistence and experimentation. You dig in for the long haul.
    **************************************************************

    What about all the naysayers on this flush ?

    On some technical level, they can be correct about something but they are no where to be seen or heard when talking about all the unnecessary gallbladder operations. They are part of the problem. They use scare tactics on people like something getting caught in billary duct. I can say that if you go outside, you may be struck by lightning so don't go outside ever. There is technical truth to it but that's all. They hum the same lie that - doctor knows best. It's ok to get their perspective but they are part of the problem. There are overwhelmingly positive reviews on the flush but they ignore that. If the medical establishment were truly interested in healing, this liver/gallbladder flush would have been studied in clinical trials. They remain silent about the medical establishment not lifting a finger to study this. Like so many other natural cures, their agenda isn't about healing.

    Given all the things out there, there is enough scientific evidence that says that cholesterol stones can be broken/dissolved. Many gallstones may not show up on scans unless they are calcified hence doctors will claim nothing is there. Cleaning out the organs of all the crud like bile sludge, fatty deposits, cholesterol build up, gravel, stones etc won't be highlighted by most doctors. They will say everything is ok.

    On an anecdotal level, there is hard evidence that people are expelling gravel, calcified stones and other crud of various kinds. People cancel their gallbladder surgery. There are many reviews on line.


    ************************************************************************
    LINKS
    ************************************************************************
    # Andreas Moritz died at age 58 from a condition he got as a child
    # very compassionate man but with that comes attacks on him
    # no truly good deeds go unpunished on this planet

    # Snapshot of liver flush
    http://www.cleanse-me-healthy.com/andreas-moritz.html

    # Moritz 2012 edition on amazon - has more in depth knowledge
    https://www.amazon.com/Andreas-Moritz/e/B001JRVA3E/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

    # Moritz PDF 2007 edition is free. Basic info is here.
    http://www.whale.to/c/andreas.moritz.-.the.amazing.liver.cleanse.pdf

    # Moritz Q & A
    http://www.ener-chi.com/free-health...-by-andreas-moritz/liver-flush-liver-cleanse/

    # Curezone has the most extensive information on Liver/Gallbladder Flush
    # but is information overload. This is why I tried to give a snap shot of what
    # I have learned above
    http://www.curezone.org/cleanse/liver/gallstones_and_liver_flush.asp
    http://www.curezone.org/gallstones/

    # Mayo Clinic
    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...pert-answers/gallbladder-cleanse/faq-20058134

    # Stool color will tell you if liver or gallbladder is problem
    http://drdnaturopath.com/gallbladder-bile-deficiency-and-high-cholesterol/

    % the comment section is interesting to read
    http://www.biospiritual-energy-healing.com/how-i-got-rid-of-my-gallstones.html

    # IF STONES DON'T COME OUT, HERE IS SOME ADVICE. ALSO HAS SOME OTHER PRODUCTS
    http://www.sensiblehealth.com/LiverGallbladderFlush.xhtml
    # MORE TIPS TO GETTING BETTER FLUSH
    http://vitalitymagazine.com/article...bladder-flush-out-gallstones-the-natural-way/


    # Products using monoterpenes can be found on Amazon
    GallCleanse Gall Cleanse Natural Gallstone Cleanse Kit ($40)
    http://www.heranswer.com/GallCleanse_Studies.asp
    How to take GallCleanse
    http://www.heranswer.com/shopping/products/286-GallCleanse/
    Rowachol (~$30)

    # Here is some miscellaneous links
    http://www.curezone.org/cleanse/liver/liver_flush_protocol_ortophospho.asp
    http://drprincetta.com/tag/super-phos-30-drops/ (avoid nausea)
    http://www.life-enthusiast.com/liver-and-gall-bladder-flush-dr-clark-a-818.html



    =====================================================================
    IN A NUTSHELL
    =====================================================================
    PHASE 1 Day 1-4 to soften stones
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    My daily ritual for 4Xday for 4 days was while stomach empty ...

    I poured out one cup of juice. Swallowed 500mg malic acid (you can add more) with sip of juice.
    I added 50 drops of phosphoric acid in juice and drank with straw
    I swished/rinsed my mouth out with baking soda water and spit out
    =====================================================================


    =====================================================================
    PHASE 2 Day 5 to PURGE COLON (and relax bile duct), FLUSH STONES OUT
    my objective was to do flush 10 hours after waking up
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Continue Phase 1 ritual thru 5th day
    Stop eating 9 hours before flush


    PURGE/RELAX
    4 hours after after last eating, take 1-2 tablespoon epsom salt in glass of water
    (after epsom salt dissolved i put ice cubes in it to cool it)

    2-3 hours later, drink epsom salt again

    FLUSH
    2 hours later begin FULUSH
    Wait a minimum of 4-10 hours after last meal of day before doing flush
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DRINK THIS
    6 ounces of olive oil (what forces the liver to spasm and force stones out)
    10 ounces of Coca-Cola (due to its high phosphoric content, helps avoid nausea)
    1-2 lemons or large fresh grapefruit (improves taste)
    Combine all ingredients in a quart jar; shake well and drink it down relatively quickly.

    I swished/rinsed my mouth out with baking soda water and spit out

    Lie on right side (with pillow under right hip) and bring right knee as close to chest as possible for at least 30 minutes (time is mandatory)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    YOUR DONE so do anything you want
    Stay near bathroom in case you need to go
    =====================================================================
    MY RESULTS
    Early morning after. Got up and took tablespoon epsom salt in water and went back to bed.
    I felt some back up into my stomach I think. After 2 hours, went to bathroom again.
    I saw a few green things but not much.

    About 2-3 hours after I did flush, I still had heavy midsection pressure discomfort around my liver. I knew right away that I had to do the flush again. The next day, not much except a few tiny green pieces came out the day after. Maybe gravel but I don't know. I've seen one recommendation is to do the flush again the next day and see if more expelled. I've see many people say not much came out on first flush but it got more successful after that. We have

    Being able to do a partial enema with the toilet BIDET is very convenient too. I would recommend that you try it if you have one. It takes time to figure out where to aim it at anus with strong blast of water so it goes inside. It's trial and error thing.

    I EVENTUALLY REALIZED I HAD HEPATIC STEATOSIS BUT WAS ABLE TO CURE IT IN 3 WEEKS WITH A SIMPLE PROTOCOL. HOPEFULLY I WILL GET BACK TO THIS AT SOME POINT AFTER I HANDLE ANOTHER PROBLEM
    =====================================================================
    REPEAT
    Keep doing flushes every so often until no more stones come out or if none came out first time. I may experiment with shorter phase one after a couple times or just do phase 2 alone.

    Someone says every 3-4 weeks because it takes that long for the stones to move forward from the packed position.
    =====================================================================

    =====================================================================

    I came to realize that almost all the articles and info on liver over the years had neglected to mention much about stones and more important the calcification issue over many decades. It's like talking about atherosclerosis by talking about plaque but not calcification. Doing liver detox but not gallstone flush is like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound and not removing the bullet. Both the liver and gallbladder need to be cleaned.

    It's like the K2 subject, everyone talks about MK-7 as the one but neglects to mention MK-4 and we still dont know how much it will help us. I should have been doing this decalcification and stone removal years ago.

    Liver supplements and articles talk about "detox" but do not have STRONG EMPHASIS on calcification and other bile stone related build up. This is the most important detox to have done. Standard medical tests for liver don't even address this.

    The type of stone you have in you will determine how easy they come out. If you have just collected bile waste and maybe cholesterol stones, those are most easily dissolved and expelled. If you have more calcified and packed stones, these require a lot of flushes and correct herbs to wear them down.

    I am in 61 and never had a flush before. So I will more likely have more highly packed stones in my liver and gallbladder built up if I have them. Longer the residue sits around, the more time it has to get hard. The reason some people can do liver/gallbadder flushes with just oil and lemon is because they have the residue and soft stuff. If your addressing it at this level, life is easy. For the ones who stumble across this realization too late, we need to integrate this stone softening and flush on a much longer time period.

    If you are younger with no build up, it is important to be doing liver/gallbladder flushes every so often to insure this build up doesn't get more larger, solidified and more packed.

    The nice thing is that I am comfortable with how to do a flush so I don't have to think about it and I can tweak and customize it.

    If you got tough stone problem then prepare for the long haul. Pain could get worse simply because a stone shifted. There can be bumps in the road.

    Just be persistent and keep bringing the heavy artillery. Look for tips on how to get more useful contraction. I think some people will just not have that persistence hence give up. Some people don't have patience and didn't use enough.

    =====================================================================
    THE KEY TO PREVENT AND DISSOLVE/BREAK UP STONES
    1) INCEASE BILE FLOW
    2) INCREASE BILE VOLUME

    The reason you developed stones is because there isn't enough bile flowing fast enough.
    Increasing bile flow involves removing the sludge from it and making it more liquid.
    When you want to dissolve/break the stones, just think of what will help with the above

    SILIPHOS and TUDCA help with #1
    Ox Bile helps with #2

    Epsom Salt helps relax bilary duct and you so things go thru it more easily and relaxed
    Bile flow and volume create pressure which helps push out stones and built up sludge

    Some people get stones stuck in their colon and a colonic or home colenz fixes that
    This is why doing the epsom salt is important. it's for preventative reasons.
    =====================================================================
    =====================================================================
    WHAT IF STONE GETS STUCK IN BILARY DUCT
    Try taking epsom salt to relax yourself and the bilary duct. Also keep taking the stone breaker herbs. Best way to avoid it is just use various stone breaker stuff for a good amount time before flush. It's a rare event to ever read about.
    =====================================================================



    JUST LIKE YOUR CAR NEEDS IT'S OIL AND FILTER CHANGED, THIS IS A MANDATORY HEALTH TOOL FOR YOUR HEALTH

    So what are the salient points I have learned from this experience. First, gallstone formation begin in the liver - not the gallbladder. You need to get your liver bile healthy also. Some people who have had their gallbladder removed still have gallstone attacks because stones become lodged in bilary duct. Second and most important thing is that learning how to do a liver / gall bladder cleanse is a MUST in terms of life long health maintenance. It is no different than learning to change the oil and filter in your car to remove the built up crud. Taking silymarin or some liver supplement really doesn't address this problem if already there. Thirdly, if you have any type of chronic abdomen discomfort or digestion or constipation etc, this is something you want to check off doing in an attempt to solve them. Heck, you want to check this off for numerous other health problems way beyond that. If your liver and gallbladder are under pressure, this will translate to other parts of the body.

    The gallbladder / liver flush becomes another tool you can use to add to your arsenal of weapons to fight your health problems. Once you do it once, you get over any apprehension and unfamiliarity with doing it wondering what will happen.

    If you have a gallstone attack and go to a doctor, they will tell you that you must have surgery to have gallbladder removed or you could die. With this tool, you can tell the doctor - no thank you - I'll handle the problem myself and keep my gallbladder. Couple months ago I talk to a mother whose son had his gallbladder sadly removed. Her son never checked the internet and trusted the doctor. This could have been avoided with knowledge. Most doctors simply do what the system tells them and too many really don't care about the patients health. Their licenses are more at risk if they try to heal the patient. The dentists are not to be trusted either. Most people look at doctors as authority figures. Almost everyone has these stones. They can be asymptomatic but they can still be affecting their health but you may not know it.

    Don't allow any organ from your body to be removed without a good long hard fight.

    Hopefully this is useful to someone out there.
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There is one article here detailing why the so called "stones" expelled in a liver flush / gallbladder flush are not gallstones.

    And from an older post, here is my explanation of why the "stones" expelled in a liver flush cannot be gallstones:
    Not saying that liver flushes cannot have any health benefits; some people may find them beneficial; but the "stones" that are expelled in a liver flush are not gallstones.
     
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  3. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    >Think about this: repeated flushes keep producing more "stones" on each occasion.

    First, in all the research I have done, I have not come across many people producing constant load of stones. most people will produce some but then it eventually dwindles down to nothing so whoever wrote that didn't do their homework.

    Second, most gallstones are cholesterol. There is enough research to say they do dissolve into malleable gel.

    Third, there are too many anecdotal reports that say gallstone cleanse works. even calcium stones come out. Anecfotal repolrts are just as valid as scientific studies.

    Fourth, the medical establishment has had 40 years to do real scientific studies on it to validate or invalidate it but they haven't lifted a finger.

    Fifth, you can go to you tube and find proof that gallstones will dissolve into rubbery gel right in front of your eyes

    Sixth, when a doctor tells you that your gallbladder needs to be removed due to gallstones - enjoy yourself in surgery. This post is for people who realize that the body has ways of healing itself with right natural medicine.

    This isn't something to be debated. There is enough information out there where people can research and decide for themselves. I just pulled together a lot of info that was scattered all around.

    As far as cleaning the liver, the fatty build up also needs to be removed so i added that other link in. I would clean fatty liver FIRST before doing this. After the fatty liver is cleaned then the stones can be cleaned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  4. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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  5. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    oh please. the gallbladder removal medical business should be a crimes against humanity. when you mention evidence - whose evidence and who anointed it.

    there is not much difference between a scientific study and anecdotal reports. at the end of the day, they are just stories we try to evaluate. we try things and report back.

    that link is an abomination to human life.

    did you find any cures for anything. if so, you should just post them instead of focusing on suppressing information.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What about the advocates of liver flushing / gallbladder flushing providing the evidence, after all, it's their idea. All you would need is an ultrasound scan or MRI scan showing the presence of a large real gallstone in the gallbladder, and then after the liver flushing, a second scan to demonstrate it has gone. It would not be difficult.

    What can be use to dissolve gallstones is ursodeoxycholic acid, according to this study.



    I've read that people produce "stones" repeatedly for many flushes in a row, and even one batch of those stones may be too large to fit into the gallbladder, which only has a small volume. Also, people can produce hundreds of these "stones" in a single liver flush, but the number of real gallstones that people actually have in their gallbladder in the order of around 15 to 20, according to this study.

    Furthermore, look at a picture of these liver flush "stones," such as this one:

    Screen Shot 2017-07-27 at 2.40.11 am.png

    You will immediately notice that some of these stones look over 3 cm in diameter. Now the common bile duct typically has a diameter no larger than around 6 mm, so how is a 30 mm "stone" going to pass along a 6 mm wide tube?


    Again, I am not dismissing liver flushes; I guess it is quite possible that liver flushes do have some benefits. In addition to gallstones, gallbladders can also have gallbladder sludge (biliary sludge). Perhaps a liver flush might clean some of this sludge out of the gallbladder. That would be interesting to find out.



    In terms of the necessity of gallbladder removal, this article says:
     
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  7. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @Kati SBM is one of my favorite blogs with lots of valuable information.

    I agree. This treatment is pseudoscience so should go somewhere in alt. med forum.

    This is an oxymoron.

    Edit. I reported this thread asking it to be moved.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  8. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Kati

    lol... "science based medicine" said that ulcers were caused by "stress" until h pylori was discovered.. Many similar examples, because medicine & research are imperfect and constantly evolving. I go to the science first, but it has to be read w this understanding....Do you know about Ioannidis' work @ Stanford??

    This paper of his is/was the most downloaded paper on PLoS:
    Why Most Published Research Findings Are False?

    ...And an article about his work from the Atlantic:
    Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science
    Much of what medical researchers conclude in their studies is misleading, exaggerated, or flat-out wrong. So why are doctors—to a striking extent—still drawing upon misinformation in their everyday practice? Dr. John Ioannidis has spent his career challenging his peers by exposing their bad science.

    --

    re toxins, yep there is a lot of bs, BUT I disagree that our bodies are so great at processing them out of our bodies... If that's true, then why would MCAS exist? Why would Gulf War Syndrome Exist? Pollution has been linked to T1D in studies.... Here's one study describing how much our bodies can suck at detoxing:

    Toxicological Function of Adipose Tissue: Focus on Persistent Organic Pollutants


    Last - yep, this belongs in alt med
     
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  9. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Hip

    thanks for the explanation from the earlier post! It makes a lot of sense
     
  10. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    If this thread does get moved, just proof that oppressive forces rule here.

    of course if this post advocated surgical removal of the gallbladder because of gallstones, bardc and kati would have no problems. for them to have the audacity to do what they did is appalling.

    the group that wears the "evidence based medicine" has built a very toxic, corrupt and oppressive health care system. they are also the ones that have waged a long cover up of ME/CFIDS behind the scenes.

    they are also responsible for the unnecessary removal of millions of gallbadders.
     
  11. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    >What about the advocates of liver flushing / gallbladder flushing providing the evidence,

    They did - their personal stories. that's as golden as any scientific study.

    oh, you want one of those expensive studies ... those people don't control the money ... the forces of the NWO controls virtually all the money on this planet. most people are trying to eke out a living ... you'll have to fund it

    Hip, this won't be any debate on this. The information is presented and people just have to decide for themselves
     
  12. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    A pub med search on liver cleanse and liver detox yielded these. So much for evidence.
    https://www.researchgate.net/public..._management_A_critical_review_of_the_evidence

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22884574

    Edit to add: 5 months after contracting EBV (my ME onset) I was hospitalized for 10 days for the mother of all gallbladder attacks. It turned out it was not dirty or in need of cleansing, it was necrotic. The only treatment for a necrotic gallbladder is to get it removed. I never had gallbladder issues ever in my life until then, nor family history.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  13. Kina

    Kina

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    It is proof of no such thing.

    Are gallbladder/liver flushes a general treatment for ME/CFS. No, therefore doesn't belong in the "General Treatment" forum.

    It is not 'appalling' to suggest a treatment may be pseudoscience and provide links to support the comments.

    That statement doesn't make it true that gallbladder/liver flushes are deeply rooted in unproven pseudoscience.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This thread is about gallbladder/liver flushes not the evils of 'evidence based medicine' so any further off-topic comments will be removed. Any personal attacks will be removed.

    Please note: information criticizing any treatment on Phoenix Rising is allowed, to not allow these discussions would be oppressive.
     
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  14. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @ebethc

    I am a long time fan of Ioannidis. Unfortunately people often misinterpret what he says. He is not throwing out the scientific method but is saying there are many factors that make many studies wrong. Thiis number is not unexpected.under Baysian statistics. For example think of pilot studies which don't pan out when reproduced. They are added to the numbers. This is how science works.

    He advocates strict methodologies and if studies methodologies come under question the study is likely to be false.

    Here are a few references that explain his theories.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/09/24/the-cranks-pile-on-john-ioannidis-work-o/

    http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/09/why_most_publis.html

    So putting this thread under alternative treatments is not because the forum is oppressive but moving it reflects that science discounts this treatmen from what we know about how the human body works as well as the analysis of these "stones".

    One big contributor of false studies are those in alternative medicine. Many of any stu have shoddy methodologies as well as relying too heavily on anecdotal accounts.

    Edit. Cross posts so may have repeated information by above posters.
     
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  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Let me help clarify

    I don't believe that I'm misinterpreting anything he says. Are you addressing someone else?

    That's the bottom line.. It's not clear why you're repeating this. How else could his work be interpreted?

    "Buyer Beware" is a good caveat for any tx, be it alt or standard...What I object to is throwing out "evidence-based" as some absolute truth when it's usually just a great place to start. Do you see the difference? I brought up Ioannidis to support this point. I provided one example contrary to the "evidence-based" link (toxins actually are stored in adipose tissue), so the claim in the article that our body does a great job of "detoxing" is not entirely true (at best).

    Thanks, I'm good

    Please read my last statement in previous post. Did you mean to address this to someone else?


    I'm the one who brought up the issues w study integrity to begin with.. Did you mean to address this to someone else?
     
  16. echobravo

    echobravo Keep searching, the answer is out there

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    @prioris thanks for making this info available. I am currently reading the book "Clean" by Dr. Junger and there seems to be a lot to gain from "aiding" the body's detox system to expel toxins, and he claims that many get their energy back from cleaning the liver. Have you experienced any such effects from your cleanses so far?

    Reading about gallstone flushes earlier I came to the understanding that there might be two "types" of gallstones, 1) the real pre-existing gallstones and 2) the "gallstones" created during the flush. Is this correct? Are the "created gallstones" just balls of assempled sludge and toxins that are released from the liver during the flush?

    Ingesting epsom salt seems pretty "intense", and I wonder if you see any potential health risks that might result from a short cleanse like this? PS! Dr. Junger suggests a more slow working detox protocol that takes 3 weeks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  17. Kina

    Kina

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    I think this post is worthy of discussion and I hope @prioris engages.

    How did you 'realize' you had "Hepatic Steatosis"? Was it via bloodwork and ultrasound or did you just decide?
    I am confused, why are you posting on an ME/CFS site about being able to 'save your gallbladder from being removed" because as far as I know, gallbladder issues are not part of ME/CFS unless I am missing something.

    Okay, lets start with that the link goes to a naturopath site. Not good because Naturopaths rely on non-science and pseudoscience.

    The color of stool can be related to many things.
    =====================================================================
    How does this soften stones. Please link to some research that shows this.
    How does purging your colon which translates into emptying your bowels relax the bile duct? Sources please.
    How does this flush stones out?

    By taking Epsom salts, if you are crossing your magnesium tolerance, then you will have diarrhea.
    The only thing you are flushing is your bowel.
    So you drink olive oil, lemon juice - your digestive system will break it all down like usual. Why don't people who drink lots of lemonade and eat foods drenched in olive get rid of stones, because all this stuff is pseudoscience crap.

    Don't you think it would be prudent to actually go and get an ultrasound to show your gallstones rather than just deciding you have them?
    What 'sludge' is this? Can you show me some medical information that discusses 'sludge' in the bile?
    What does this actually mean. Research links please.
    ============================================================
    Where does this 'basic information' come from. Research please.

    Why?
    ************************************************************************
    Do you have research to back this up. It seems really unscientific.
    So do you have an ultrasound to show before and after stones which would be the best proof.
    What would being causing nausea is too much magnesium from the Epsom salts which increases bowel motility. Suggesting more espsom salts is just going to cause diarrhea and more nausea.
    *************************************************************
    People don't get good flushes because what you are stating doesn't cause gallbladder stones to be expelled.
    Could you actually produce some science that supports this because it's wrong. The body doesn't work this way.
    Gallstones exist in the gallbladder, not the liver. If they did, it would be included in basic medical books.
    Please provide links for this. And seriously, how does this relate to ME/CFS. Gallbladder stones cause symptom unrelated to ME/CFS.

    *************************************************************
    First of all, you shouldn't decide you need to have your gallbladder removed. It's not necessary to have your gallbladder removed when stones can be removed by non-invasive measures. Flushes are bullshit and don't work.
    It's not about being a 'nay sayer' on the flush. It's about medical science and what works and what doesn't. Its' not about scare tactics it's about what you need to do to ameliorate your symptoms. The reason why the 'medical establishment' doesn't study these flushes is because they aren't ignorant, they understand how the body works and aren't going to waste time and money on proving something that can't be proved. They are not remaining silent, they aren't going to waste time on what they know is impossible.
    Gallstones can be dissolved by surgery and medications. Of course stones can reoccur no matter what method. Gallstones absolutely show up on scans, to say otherwise is a lie. Links to research please. Anecdotes do not produce hard evidence. The evidence is that people are not expelling gallstones.

    Okay, so you have done a Google search on this which isn't research. Have you bothered to include any information that opposes your contentions. One side, cognitive bias.


    My suggestion would be to actually get a scan to see if you have stones and then discuss with your doctor the next steps rather than follow these steps that won't work.
    Of course you are going to go to the bathroom again, magnesium is known to do this.

    If you saw a 'few green things', it was due to magnesium causing increased bowel emptying at a rapid pace.

    Midsection pain was probably due to extra magnesium.

    You really shouldn't recommend more flushes due to this, just causing more bowel issues. Advocating an enema at this point is not smart.

    How did you come to this conclusion? Scans, bloodwork. If you decide you have something, it's very easy to undecide you have something.
    =====================================================================
    No, this doesn't happen. See links by @Kati or @barbc56. It isn't possible.
    How do you 'clean' the gallbladder? Even if you do, how do you stop gallstones from forming? The liver detoxes itself, marvellous way the human body looks after itself.

    The body detoxes itself via breathing, liver actions, kidneys etc. All the detox stuff offered on altie websites is crap. The body looks after itself. Try starting with anatomy and physiology courses, digestion, how the body works and you will see how the stuff you have been ignoring actually makes sense.

    How do you know you have 'highly packed stones? Are you just guessing or have you had a scan? I guess if you believe you have these things, you can cure them. If you want actual proof -- get a scan, if you have stones, do your therapy, have another scan and report the results.

    Oh seriously. Why bother. There are specific proven markers of having gallstones - Fair Fat and forty. Genetics, weight and age.

    You can only know if you have a stone problem with an ultrasound. You might diagnose yourself with a gallbladder based on googling it. But what if the symptoms are due to ovarian cancer, bowel cancer etc --you can't know what is going on in your body without medical test.
    No actually, if you have symptoms go to a doctor and get tests. You might miss a huge terminal illness or an easily solved problem.
    The key to solving gallbladder issues is not to pay attention to pseudoscience or non-science websites that proclaim they know real science. If you suspect, gallbladder issues, go to your doctor and get tests. Don't listen to this useless unproven information
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
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  18. Kina

    Kina

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    Oh by the way, excuse any formatting, spelling mistakes i have made. I got frustrated because the software wouldn't let me post my post because there are dodgy links in prioris's posts. I couldn't go thru them all., so I used a browser that doesn't care about dodgy spam links. If I were you I wouldn't click on any links in their post.
     
  19. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Not true. They do use homeopathy (in addition to many other treatment modalities), and I understand that many consider homeopathy to be bunk. I'm not going to debate that here.

    But naturopaths also have a lot of standard scientific training: https://aanmc.org/resources/comparing-nd-md-curricula/
     
  20. Kina

    Kina

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    They obviously don't or they wouldn't be offering most of the treatments they do. The link just goes through a curriculum to make the program look good, you can't know from that what is actually being taught.

    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-embraces-the-four-humors/
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/wh...her-when-they-think-no-ones-listening-part-2/
    https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html
    https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/naturopathic-medicine-quackery/
    http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2016/01/shocking-confessions-naturopathic-doctor.html
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brittm...-endemic-quackery-ozone-therapy/#2040fef646a2
     
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