The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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How to deal with overmethylation??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Irwin, Nov 23, 2015.

  1. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Weeks ago, I induced an overmethylation state. It’s horrible. Panic attacks, anxiety and paranoia, brain fog and depression, I never had this before. I stayed in this HELL for 3 weeks, then I tried to use B3 to alleviate my symptoms and it really helped. Before this overmetylation state, I was able to tolerate 100mg/day niacin and feel the effects for the entire week. Now I used 50mg 2 days ago, 50mg yesterday and 100mg today. I’m recovering, but I’m feeling my “hunger” for niacin is just increasing! If I don’t use, bad symptoms start to appear. I don’t know what’s happening, because I’m feeling niacin is losing effectiveness. Is possible these methyl groups accumulated in my body? I heard Sam-e do that.

    I can’t even consider the fact niacin will lose the effectiveness, I can’t return to paranoia/depression/anxiety/brain fog, things I never had!
     
  2. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Consider that you may have induced a B3 deficiency and/or what you call an overmethylation state. 100mg of niacin is not a lot btw. You might take 100mg a few times per day to calm down the methylation and/or correct the B3 deficiency. You might want to see this post by Caledonia about how to hit the brakes on methylation.

    Also you want to be on the lookout for Potassium deficiency which can cause some anxiety as well (from my experience)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
    Mary likes this.
  3. Irwin

    Irwin

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    I don't know how I'd put me in a B3 deficiency, I think this is not the problem. B3 helps because it's like a 'methyl sponge'. It uses sam-e. Using 50mg/day and increasing doesn't seem I'm improving... needing more and more, something is wrong.
    I used today my 100mg split in 4 doses, and seems it's less effective than yesterday. Shit, I just fucked my body and mind, this is nerve-racking!
    I'll do some blood tests: histamine, b12 and folate.
     
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    It's going to be all right. The fact that the niacin worked a little is a good sign.

    Just keep taking 50-100mg of niacin. Ben Lynch now says you can take it as often as every hour or even half hour if you need to.

    I took it every 4 hours, but symptoms would come back before the 4 hours was up. It took me 4 or 5 days total get everything settled down.

    The reason it may take several days for everything to calm down, is that methylation has a lot of momentum and keeps cranking once you get it started.

    The length of time it takes may also depend on how badly you got yourself overmethylated.
     
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  5. Irwin

    Irwin

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    God listen to you. It's weird because some times I feel horrible symptoms, then sometimes calm down. Yesterday was a good day, but today I'm with anxiety and a little paranoia, different than yesterday. Then this made me more paranoic, because I felt like I wasn't recovering. I never had paranoia before, this is shocking.

    Do you know If taking too much B3 can lead to some nutrient imbalances?

    Thanks for the reply
     
  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    100 mg. is not very much at all, as others have said. I'd follow Caledonia's advice.
     
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  7. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Ok, thanks. I'll do that. I just have a last question, if somebody knows, please answer:

    Does overmethylating lows/increase NMDA activity?
     
  8. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    That's right.
    While experimenting with methyl donors I had several problems with extra anxiety. In particular sublingual Quatrefolic gave me sono nasty side effects.

    Taking 100mg of B3 (niacinamide) did help but I had to repeat 3 times during the day. It also helps to use sedative herbs such as Valerian, Passion flower and Ashwagandha.

    cheers
     
  9. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Supposedly 'overmethylators' need extra niacinamide, if I feel I have overdone B12 methyl donors I take an extra 250mg niacinamide and avoid B12 for a couple days.

    How much B12 where you taking to cause this? It has taken me about 2 years but I have learnt the hard way to get my doses correct, because it so tempting to keep adding B12 because it so good, but 1000mcg every two days is my sweet spot (sometimes daily if I am feeling game), with a b complex daily, 50mg B2 daily, 100mg niacinamide twice daily, 500mcg 5-MTHF daily. Too much B12 or methylfolate too quick and it ends badly, end up in a real over sensitive anxious state. You just can not rush this, as much as we would like to make it happen in a month, you could be looking at years.
     
  10. Irwin

    Irwin

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    The last time I used methyl folate was 400mcg plus 500 hydroxb12.
    Then after this each day I started to get panic and brain fogged. Then after a week I used TMG, Choline + methionine 3 days in a row, but it wasn't intentional, it's cause I used a product that helps in the liver when you get hangover. After this, panic and brain fog started to get much worse, also a bit of paranoia. Strange because some days i'm not so paranoic and panic, but some days I'm living a hell
     
  11. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    "B3 helps because it's like a 'methyl sponge'. It uses sam-e" ---- Therefore, IMO, SAMe uses B3. If you crank up your methylation and your SAMe then that is gonna soak up more B3/Niacin. It makes sense that increasing methylation will increase the demand for B3 and probably make you deficient. That has been my experience. If we don't want to circumvent the methylation cycle perhaps taking our DQ supps away from Niacin is in order. Taking maybe your DQ supps in the AM and extra B3 in the evening to slow the process and give your body the B3 it needs so your body stops using your precious available Tryptophan to produce Niacin instead of being available for Serotonin production.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  12. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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  13. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    How long have you been trying these supplements? And how often? When I first started B12 I got quite strong reactions, paranoia I had not felt in over 10 years, edgyness, anxiety. I never saw this as a bad thing, just the process getting started; I got quite positive effects though as well so never worried about it. I doubt it is possible to explain why this happens exactly, but I imagine it hits some old nerves and responses.

    Seems like you just need to let everything settle and start again very slow, like B12 once a week with some small doses of b's spread over the week. Do you have a history of these symptoms prior to these supplements?

    Now this is pure theory, because the concept of 'over-methylation' is disputable, but if you believe you fall into this category it is advised to avoid methyl donors, so hydroxy should be ok but folic acid is recommended for over-methylators over methylfolate. I have been diagnosed as an over-methylator by one person, I have all the hallmarks, but another disputes it; and I stick to using some methyl donors because dosed right it seems fine, too much its not good; and I have not got around to experimenting removing them :sleep:
     
  14. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Below quote from Dr. Ben...

    #1 SAMe binds to B3 (and B3 binds to SAMe) causing loss of both.

    #2 might be why you are anxious (or asking about NMDA)

    #3 Lack of Niacin will cause your Serotonin levels to plummet and all kinds of mental issues related to low Serotonin may manifest.

     
  15. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Paranoia can be high dopamine. The thing is very complicated, much more than Dr Ben thinks it is. The human body is so complex. Probably, this messed with lot of things, including of course my neurotransmiters.

    This is a good theory, but I replenished my stock of B3 (100mg is more than 100% fda) and still wanting more. This would make sense if Sam-e accumulates in the body and the only way to leave is binding to B3. Do you know if this is true?
     
  16. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Just a question: IF I induced folate or b12 deficiency, this is easily checked by blood exams, right?
     
  17. Irwin

    Irwin

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    So, I stopped using niacin tuesday because it was helping me with paranoia BUT this shit let me apathetic

    Now I discovered I have all symptoms of histapenia... AND OVER METHYLATING JUST BREAKS DOWN MY HISTAMINE.... and consuming niacin release even more histamine (but it was necessary to counter act methyl gruoups)

    Niacin doesn't produce histamine, it just realise... so now I have nothing on my reserves... i feel apatethic, also weak, I walk to te market and feel my legs tired, I'm just 23yo and was a runner before starting these METHYL SHITS.

    I can't even cry, no tears because I'm apathetic. Today I was thinking about suicide...
     
  18. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    If you stop taking everything and give some time for things to washout and methlyation to die down. At my worst nothing was ever permanent even though I felt many times I screwed myself up for good. I would eat good raw foods to provide vitamins and minerals that way. You'll get them in a ratio nature has determined.
     
  19. Irwin

    Irwin

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    Sam-e accumulates in your body, time does nothing. I never saw something like this, effect of illegal drugs like cocaine vanish the body with time, but methylation no... I saw others going crazy like me and time did nothin... oh boy, never tought this would be so complicated. Only niacin helps, and not so efficiently.
     
  20. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    How many days has it been at this point? Have you tried vitamin C to mop up liver detoxification intermediates? I would recommend minerals as I believe methylation causes deficiency of several minerals most of all Potassium. For me I need to take Potassium, Magnesium and Calcium to get back to feeling better. If you have a deficiency you won't know until you correct that deficiency.

    Also as Ben Lynch mentions you might try p5p to dump homocysteine to the transulfuration pathway and relieve methylation that way.
     

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