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How to create more stomach acid?

Discussion in 'Gastrointestinal and Urinary' started by ebethc, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    Re SIBO.

    The aim is to kill whatever is in the small intestine. In a healthy gut you have this nice system that works by applying acid then alkali, and by using enzymes and bile to try to tear the bacteria apart.

    The combination of enzymes acid and bile is mean to do that. Myhill suggests going further by taking vitamin C to bowel tolerance. Which is to say you increase the dose stepwise say 2g then 3g then 4g and take it to the point where you get diarrhoea then step back to a 1 g lower dose.

    She also suggests starving the microbes out by eating few readily available carbs. The 1st time I tried this (before I got the betaine HCL) I just had leaves (spinach, lettuce, kale etc) and home made fermented vegetables (eggplant, cabbage, carrots, cucumbers), meat and maybe a bit of olive oil for two weeks.

    It lead to improvements but did not stop the SIBO, I wish I had learned about Betaine HCL back then.

    I went on a really long journey trying lots of things that may have helped or harmed, and was already taking ox bile, enzymes and eating a whole foods diet and then adding betaine HCL just fixed the SIBO.

    If the above steps are not enough I would suggest looking at Grace Liu's 7 steps https://thegutinstitute.com/cure-sibo

    Only when choosing probiotics I would always check out ken lessesen's site first http://cfsremission.wordpress.com/. I would also look at his info on herbs their interactions with the microbiome.
     
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  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I didn't have a general histamine reaction to it, just local in the stomach

    In my experience when I succeeded to inhibit histamine production or release I always felt worse - worsened digestion and decreased energy
     
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  3. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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  4. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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  5. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Why does myhill suggest vitamin c for SIBO?

    Do u still take bile, too? Are the enzymes systemic (away from meals, taken for pain/inflammation), or digestive?

    Have u done any gall bladder flushes?
     
  6. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    nothing, I just add vit C to my concoction.:)
    I take vit C (have probably taken it for most of my life but not so much) for my immune system.
    I drink it all an hour before breakfast. The bicarb is only a fifth of a teaspoon. Only started adding it recently.....(see JaimeS blog as to why).
    The lemon juice is since I had a problem with kidney stones.
    I've always used ACV in my salads anyway and having read about the 'health benefits' decided to add it in too.
    As I said; none of it was to address any issues with stomach acid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  7. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Just like to say, trying to fiddle with micro-flora is probably less important than going to the root cause of the stomach acidity in the first place.

    The key is to get the stomach acidity right and this will aid digestion, absorption of nutrients and pH control in the gut. Its possible that this will improve the balance of micro flora, but no one really knows this.

    "Starving them out" is nonsense as with most of Myhills stuff. Its about balance, not eliminating species. Eating a balanced diet which is lower in refined sugar and carbs is a good idea but there is precious little evidence at the moment that anyone knows what they are talking about when it comes to species control in the gut microflora. That's why all the research papers say...much more work is needed. Myhill is talking through her hat I'm afraid. She has very little grasp of nutrition since she is wedded to the faith diet she calls "the stone age diet" which also has no basis in science.
     
  8. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    Well Myhill's explanation is that the vitamin c kills of bacteria in the small intestine.

    As for what I am doing, I was taking acid (betaine HCL) and enzymes (creon) followed by ox bile at the end of the meal.

    I no longer take ox bile because I have started making and releasing my own. In my case it seems to have been the case that a B Hominis infection ( see http://www.badbugs.org/ ) was doing whatever was necessary to stop bile production. Before killing it off with triple therapy (described on the above site) I needed bile after every fat containing meal which in my case was every meal, I no longer need it at all.

    I had sibo from 2003 -2015. I tried lots of interventions in that time. When it died I was taking betaine HCL plus ox bile and digestive enzymes and eating AIP paleo. I had been on AIP paleo for a while and otherwise it seemed to be making things worse, so I do not think it the cause of my improvement.

    More generally I am, I think sensibly, avoiding anything I do not feel like eating/taking and thus, I hope, avoiding allergens. I am taking supplements/foods that are recognised to reduce paracellular permeability and to be antiinflammatory so not that far away from Maes protocol but with the addition of Matcha and turmeric instead of curcumin and some extra polyphenols etc.

    As I am currently on antifungals and was recently (December) on antibiotics I am also taking a lot of fermented foods. I was doing quite a lot of a2 yoghurt made with a mixture of the probiotics that Ken lessesen suggests and a few that I thought looked interesting. I have now switched from the milk to soy, just got tired of it no allergic reaction.

    I have also been taking fermented porridges made by soaking and then cooking whole grains (rice buckwheat and sorghum in the current batch) and then fermenting them in an electrically heated thermostat controlled yoghurt maker at 37C for 2 days. I using the same sorts of probiotics.

    I also have some lactofermented veggies, but only the ones I like and to the extent that I like them. Ken lessesen warns that standard sauerkraut and yoghurt may be an issue for some people. I trust that I can work that out if I pay attention to my body and how it reacts to foods.

    The nasal thing is a bit complex but I am following Dr Osamu Hotta's protocol http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...eir-nasopharyngitis-with-zinc-chloride.48647/

    I have been doing this in addition to taking probiotics nasally (l sakei mostly) and nasal rinses with saline.

    I have changed how I do this over time adjusting my methods based on results. The current version is that I swab my nasopharynx and mouth with zinc chloride, and then do a nasal rinse with a little saline just to clear away any clods of phlegm. Then I irrigate with a mixture of lactobacillus Sakei and nystatin. And this may disgust you but I then gargle and drink that rinsing liquid. My hope is to get the antifungal suspension and the probiotic everywhere.

    The l sakei is the whey from a soy yoghurt made on l sakei in the yoghurt maker, the nystatin is half a 500,000 unit capsule.

    By degrees I have gone from having bloody swabs to ones that just have the occasional blush of pink. My interpretation is to continue until I have no sign of sinusitis and have clean swabs twice a day every day for
    a week. So far the longest I have gone without any blood is 2 days.
     
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  9. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Richard7 i like your triple therapy... I'm going to adopt it, and continue to do infection therapies (i.e., rounds of herbal protocols for SIBO)

    My sinuses are infection free these days, although I still have plenty of swelling and brain fog, which is - I believe - caused by inhaling allergens and pollution... all my infections are in my gut these days, and since I did the SIBO herbs a couple of months ago, I haven't had an infection... good time to test the triple therapy

    The fermented stuff is full of histamines so I have to proceed carefully... my body loves kimchi, which is interesting because I've read that l plantarum (the bacteria in kimchi) breaks down histamine... so does b infantis, and l rhamnosus downregulates histamine receptors. A lot of probiotics can increase histamine..So I'm really selective about fermented stuff and probiotics

    Thanks again for your detailed responses ....very helpful and appreciated
     
  10. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Richard7
    How much ox bile did u take per meal? Did u just take it w fat or protein or both?
     
  11. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    @ebethc when everything is working most bile is recycled. I cannot remember the exact amounts but the pool of bile that people usually use is measured in grams (I think under 10, or at least not much over it) and only a small amount makes it into the large intestine each day.

    So If your problem is that you are simply not producing enough you should find that your need decreases once you have refilled that pool. When I first started I was on 0.5g per meal and was having 3 very similar meals a day. Then maybe somewhere between 1 and 2 months later I got a type of diarrhoea I had not had before but now associate with too much bile, and reduced my dose first to 0.25g per meal then 0.125g per meal. That was a bit too low so I occasionally had to take a larger dose and use stool colour as a guide.

    Some people have issues with releasing their bile from the gall bladder and bitters and turmeric, dandelion leaf and some other things taken before, during or after a meal (advice varies) can induce the gallbladder to empty.
     
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  12. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Richard7 have u done gall bladder cleanses?
     
  13. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    no.

    I have taken a fair amout of tumeric though, I am following Hip's anti anxiety thing (tumeric flaxseed oil and NAG.)
    and this research https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12495265 shows that there is about a 70% contraction of the gall bladder when you take 80mg curcumic which I understand to be less than a teaspoon of tumeric. I have at least one per day.

    Of course this is in healthy people and may well depend on the stomach being acid, as that is usually necessary for the gall bladder to release bile. So it may be that ony tumeric taken in meals when I am also taking betaine hcl count, and that is also pretty common: I took yesterday's tumeric in a curry.

    I know I had a few nights shortly (maybe a month) after I started betaine HCL with upper right quadrant abdominal pain that may have been gall stones passing. I understand that one of the theories about gall stone formation is that having the bile sit around unused for long periods of time can allow the bile to crystalise into stones.

    But I never got it investigated so it may have been something else..
     
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