Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Beyond, Jan 2, 2014.
Hello Beyond, que gusto, mi abuela era de Archena en Murcia, vivo en México. Could you please give me some info about where you found this abstract? Thank you so much
Apart from the appalling cruelty of 'forced swimming' tests, @Jonathan Edwards has pointed out that the 'stress' caused by such tests is exertional as well as psychological. It is already known from human studies that exertion increases gut permeability. I think I have posted this study about it before but can't find it.
Hola Margarita, uso el Google Scholar para encontrar información científica. You just type the basic words, such as stress and intestinal inflammation and there you go.
@MeSci Yeah I´ve seen these studies done in athletes, in some of them colostrum was found to reverse the increase of intestinal permeability brought by exercise. Nonetheless, it is pretty clear for me that psychological and emotional stress causes gut dysfunction.
I know. It is horrible what these people do to animals in the name of science. They do much worse stuff though, like creating IBD artificially in rats for example. I find it morally repellent but the information is published and the crime done so I can´t ignore it. But yeah, horrid, I have become more aware of it lately.
I'm afraid I am all too aware of the horrors inflicted on animals in the name of science, as I have had to study it in great depth for my work which has involved scientific critique of the theories, procedures, conclusions and (lack) of relevance to humans. It has led me to the conclusion that it is a waste of time reading such studies if one wants to understand human biology, illness, response to chemicals, etc., as on average the results are no more accurate than tossing a coin. If 'animal models' were relevant we would by now have safe, effective treatments for cancer, dementia, etc., etc., as these have been studied in 'animal models' for decades.
The poor rats may not produce (or not produce) cortisol in the same way as PWCFS. I noted that the abstract said "corticosterone levels".
So if you are a PWCFS and don't produce cortisol under stress (and I have consistency low cortisol) then the same conclusions may could not be reached for the circumstances.
You refer to urine, saliva or blood cortisol? My saliva and urine cortisol are low, blood is very high. I get pretty nervous before getting the blood taken with the needle.
I don't know. We need to compare it to the rats in that test and read the full paper to see if cortisol was part of their argument. I could be wrong to even mention it.
BTW, it's my saliva and blood cortisol that is always low but I'm fine with needles.
Is this actually "forced swimming" though ? They used "water avoidance" stress. Google found this definition:
"The test apparatus consisted of a Plexiglas tank (45 cm length × 25 cm width × 25 cm height) with a block (10 × 8 × 8 cm) affixed to the center of the floor. The tank was filled with fresh room temperature water (25°C) to within 1 cm of the top of the block. The animals were placed on the block for a period of 1 h daily for 10 consecutive days corresponding to the chronic stress protocol (WA). Sham WA consisted of placing the rats similarly for 1 h daily for 10 days on the same platform in a waterless container. This well-characterized test represents a potent psychological stressor with large elevations of ACTH and corticosterone within 30 min (30)."
This doesn't seem like exertion would be involved ... although I'm not clear where the stress is coming from.
If the theory that leaky gut can actually cause ME, examining how the leaky gut can be caused is of interest though - through human studies. I know that some people don't accept the leaky-gut-autoimmunity-ME theory or that psychological stress could be part of causation, but I see no reason why chronic stress could not be a contributory factor in some people. It causes many of the same physiological changes as physical overexertion.
Hmmm...seems you're right. I wonder how much stress this causes, as wild rats commonly live in riverbanks and are often seem swimming in rivers. Maybe it's the combination of confinement and unavoidable proximity to water, perhaps mimicking a threat of flooding to a nest.
Still the wrong species though. I'm sure a few human volunteers could be recruited and agree to be stressed by, say watching scary films or being presented with scary fictional scenarios/dilemmas, or even be told to complete a task impossibly fast. Or you could just test students before, during and after exams!
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