August 8th, 2016: Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis
Jody Smith joins with other ME voices in honor of Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

How muscles work

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Allyson, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. Allyson

    Allyson

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes:
    679
    Australia, Melbourne
    Here is an upto date on muscel work repair etc as stimulated by Jodie Smiths recent article on PEM
    http://www.jonbarron.org/article/ho...arron&utm_content=Biweekly Newsletter 2/11/13

    lactic acid is out

    muscle tears that repair is how the pain occurs in well peple after exercsie

    this dosc posts interesting nd reliable info

    intertinng here that he says small scars for in the muscle often when we exercise - that may be what causes PEM inn people with ED/ME as EDS is a CTD that causes abnorma scar formation?
    just a guess but a thought provoking read
    it is quite detailed but accurate adn well written and up to date
    i still see people talking about lactic acid build up whihch has been de-bunked.
     
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

    Messages:
    14,283
    Likes:
    45,795
    This is the sort of process that psychologists use to attribute our PEM to deconditioning - essentially that we exercise, have the normal damage done to muscles, and react somewhat hysterically to it. Essentially they're saying that PEM symptoms are the same as the normal symptoms experienced by healthy people when exercising.

    But there's probably something vastly different physiologically going on in ME/CFS patients than the typical damage, to account for the wide array of symptoms we get with PEM.
     
  3. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

    Messages:
    4,659
    Likes:
    5,454
    It could also be that we get the typical damage, but not the typical repair.
     
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

    Messages:
    14,283
    Likes:
    45,795
    That could be, but since we have such an abnormal reaction (not just pain/aches), there has to be something additional occurring. If the problem were only a lack of (timely) repair, we wouldn't have the extra PEM symptoms - cognitive problems, aches in unrelated muscles, etc. Maybe that mysterious process is also interfering with repair, but I do think there has to be some additional dysfunctional process occurring.
     
    Little Bluestem, SOC and ukxmrv like this.
  5. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

    Messages:
    4,659
    Likes:
    5,454
    Lack of energy production at the cellular/mitochondrial level could delay muscle repair and cause the extra PEM symptoms.
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  6. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes:
    2,616
    NSW Australia
    It may only be a part of the puzzle and it may never lead to anything useful but problems with lactic acid have not been ruled out.

    http://www.meresearch.org.uk/research/studies/2012/acidosis.html
     
  7. Allyson

    Allyson

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes:
    679
    Australia, Melbourne
    Thanks Sea

    nad for the link ot the research magazine - a new one to me and looks useful; i wiill forward it to my docs and physios etc. Interesting

    I thought it ha been debunked a s a theory of muscle sore ness in people generally - not just PWME. I see they talk about it here as acidosis or increase in pH. I don t know enough about it to know if that is the same thing.
     
  8. Allyson

    Allyson

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes:
    679
    Australia, Melbourne
    Interesting too Sea is the bit on other illnesses misdiagnosed as ME

    They do not mention EDS (Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome)


    but looking the EDS 3 chat pages on Fb they are talking about all the same symptoms as us but with added joint hypermobility

    sleep problems, frequent infections, GIT issues, "fatigue" PEM, brain fog, payback..etc.etc

    so some of us may be misdiagnosed or they may be the same illness... further along the continuum

    see this link for more if interested


    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/is-me-due-to-ehelrs-danlos-syndrome-stretchy-veins.20351/#post-310872
     
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,951
    Likes:
    12,748
    Cornwall, UK
    I have briefly looked at info about lactic acid not being directly linked to muscle soreness in healthy people. Lactic acid/lactate builds up more quickly on exertion in PwME than in those without, and this is probably one source of acidosis. It's perhaps relevant to this discussion that PEM tends to have a delayed onset, so may not be directly due to the lactic acid but to something downstream of it.

    I did some reading around acidosis and found this paper called 'Lactate physiology in health and disease', which is very technical for non-scientists:

    http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/3/128.full

    This bit may be important: "The liver removes 70% of lactate."

    Hyperlactaemia (excessively-high blood lactate levels) means that the liver will be under considerable strain with so much lactate to deal with. Maybe this is the source of some of the PEM. This bit "Lactate is buffered in plasma by NaHCO3" is one reason I started taking NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate) - to buffer the lactate as much as possible.

    This paper describe another major way that lactate is produced - in the gut:

    http://maartens.home.xs4all.nl/me/RESOURCES/NEW/D-lacticAcidosis.pdf

    and this paper:

    http://www.cfids-cab.org/rc/Sheedy.pdf

    which has been discussed elsewhere on this forum, suggests that PwME - or at least a significant subset of us - produce too much lactate in the gut on consuming carbohydrates.

    So we are likely to have a 'double-whammy' - too much lactate in the gut AND in the muscles on exertion (and quite likely in the brain due to stress), and need to address both/all at the same time, by going low-carb, and resting, pacing and chilling out as much as possible.

    Another paper, to which links have been posted elsewhere here, suggests that we may indeed benefit from a low-carb 'leaky gut' diet:

    http://integrativehealthconnection....1/Leaky-gut-in-CFS-treatment-of-leaky-gut.pdf

    I've been doing this for some time now. I have actually found that the low-carb diet has made me more relaxed, and when I inadvertently had too much carb again for a while I deteriorated physically and mentally.
     
    Allyson, Valentijn and merylg like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page