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How much Methyl B12 is needed to overcome Methyltrap??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cobain_justinsane, Aug 9, 2015.

  1. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

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    Hi everyone

    I am just wondering if there is anyone who could post their experiences about overcoming a methyltrap or anyone with knowledge on the subject.

    I have and I've observed others on the forum taking about a 1:1 ratio of MethylB12 to Methylfolate and experiencing what could possibly be methyl trap.

    Are quite large doses of MethylB12 needed in order to overcome the methyl trap that adding methylfolate may cause?? Especially when dealing with a B12 deficiency? Or dealing with multiple MTR/MTRR mutations and TCN2 mutations?

    Possibly higher ratios like 3:1/4:1 B12:B9

    Thanks
     
    ahmo likes this.
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Anything is possible. The only way you'll know what works for you is trial and error. When I was at my highest, I was taking 30mg Mfolate and 25mg MB12. Later it stabilized to about 15mg Mfolate and 20mg MB12. Currently I'm using a DIY transdermal form of MB12. I use Bluebonnet 5000mcg drops, mix with a bit of grease, and apply. With this method, and some changes over the lst months, I'm currently using 2mg sublingual Mfolate, about 2.5mg MB12.
     
  3. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Hi @ahmo, with MB12 and Mfolate at your current levels, do you see any change or benefit in increasing them? And what made you move to the transdermal form of mb12?

    Thanks.
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    My belief is that the last 3 years have *fixed* my methylation cycle. I don't know if this is how it works, but I've seen others refer to this: It might be that the body needed high levels to remedy chronic deficiencies. Once those needs were met, and I had the correct co-factors, maybe, I no longer needed higher doses. My most recent reduction, from 5mg Mfolate to 2mg came after my 3 interventions of this year: Candida/SIBO detox, adding FMN form of B2, and 3 day fast to reset immune system. I'd have to review my notes to try and work out if it was any one of these, or the total of these changes.

    I also was concerned about my teeth. But more immediately, I was spending a couple hours AM and midday with red gums, Inevitably I'd have to go out and meet the world looking like a vampire. I wasn't happy with the whole of it. There's another thread re inhalation of B12, to which I was first attracted. But it's fiddly, needs equipment. Then the transdermal experiences were posted, and I was happy to find an easy solution.
     
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  5. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Cheers @ahmo. I guess in the back of my mind is the concern that levels of mfolate and mb12 have to be ever increased ad infinitum!

    Know what you mean re facing world with red gums or lips full of tablets! Guess tansdermal is an option I'll have to look into.
     
  6. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    @ahmo, did I read somewhere you mentioned taking too much mfolate gave you adrenal symptoms?
     
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Yes. I'd been increasing my doses due to continuing deficiency symptoms. At some point I became very aware of adrenal symptoms in my face, then low back. this is when I quit green veggies, and had a remarkable uptake in methylation. After some days of getting it out of my system, I resumed at half the dose I'd been on. A few months later, after reading about taking it sublingually, I began that, and reduced my need again by 2/3: from 15 to 5mg.
     
  8. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    That's interesting. What sort of adrenal symptoms, can I ask?

    I've increased mfolate up to about 20mg over the last month (taken sublingulally) to combat some deficiency symptoms, which it has done in part -- but suspect something else going on. I have been getting an increase in nerve pains, hands and feet, tingling, cold sensations in feet up legs etc So in that phase again of trying to sort what is what.

    Had a good run for a while, now it's all up for grabs again -- it's all good , when it works!
     
  9. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    This is my belief, too, about my own methylation cycle but also about the levels needed to possibly correct chronic and severe deficiencies.

    @SJB944: Not necessarily suggesting that you do this, but I had to boost my intake of methylfolate to 40mg per day for quite a few months last year. Bumped up to 50mg for a little while but didn't see any additional benefit over 40mg. Doing that really high dose for a while helped me. Now I'm down to 800-1600mcg/day. My wallet is really breathing a sigh of relief over this. :thumbsup:

    You might try sublingually dosing your 20mgs as ahmo suggested to see if that helps boost your response without raping your wallet any further.

    Worth noting is that I was also doing very high dose mB12 (injectable, 5mg/day) while taking this large dose of methylfolate. Not saying you need that much but if you're going to do high dose methylfolate you also probably need a lot of methylB12. If you can get injectable it's a worthwhile investment to correct deficiencies, at least for a while. If not, the transdermal @ahmo noted sounds like a good alternative. I can still get injectable but if the day comes when I can't I will move to transdermal.

    Your symptoms sound like some of @Freddd's. Have you read some of his posts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
    SJB944 likes this.
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Puffy face, flakey skin around eyes, mast cell responses, which for me are eruptions in ear, nostrils, mouth; low back inflammation

    [​IMG]
     
  11. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Thanks @whodathunkit and @ahmo. Yeah been wading through Freddd's stuff, some make sense, some not so much -- it's such an individual thing. (been on Freddds protocol in various forms for about 4 years, only in last two have got significant improvement -- was ill for close to 20 years before that)

    I'm on 25mg Folate a day at the moment, and barely keeping mfolate insufficiency symptoms at bay -- today, back with vengeance. Plus up to 4500mg of potassium, just to barely keep on top of potassium deficiency symptoms -- in particular line like pains in the muscles and every where else, plus some very particular nerve pains etc.

    Thing is I've been stable on 15mg mb12 for about 5 months now, with about 5mg of adb12 thrown in here and there, mfolate at 8mg and potassium at about 3000mg and has good improvements. So last couple of months increased b-complex from 1/8th of a tablet (Nature made with C) twice a day to 1/4th twice a day, and in hindsight, given the return of nerve pains /pins and needles/cold sensations etc and and drive for more folate and potassium (over a couple of months), wondered if this was the culprit. Last week stepped up to 1/2 a tablet twice a day thinking might have needed the extra b1, b2 and b3 to help the mfolate. all hell broke loose. By end of week potassium dropped as low as it has for me, and struggling to take enough since.

    So back to 1/8th b-complex, been playing around with a it more adb12 this week hoping it might target the increased muscle pains, cramping when tightening etc, to no avail, just put more pressure on mfolate. Only other thing I've done differently in last couple of months is drop l-carnitine back a bit -- it was a real game changer for me -- I take 750mg in morning, and 500 in afternoon, Jarrow liquid.

    Thinking maybe, should increase MB12 and that maybe I'm flipping out of methytrap into mfolate insuffcienty etc. But am concerned about how much mfalote and potassium I'm needing atm.

    Prior to this latest, I could generally keep things relatively stable by just playing around a little with folate and potassium -- not good health, but relatively far better than previously.

    (Will look into the injection mb12).
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Are you eating green vegetables? If so, see what happens if you quit for a few days.

    From Amy Yasko: Those who are MTR + should consider closely monitoring lithium levels.It seems lithium helps B12 uptake.

    What's in your B complex? Are they activated? Is there folic or folinic?

    Sorry, I don't have any good ideas.
     
  13. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    No probs @ahmo don't think I've been really having much green veges, but will have a closer look.

    B-compex isn't activated, very low dosages. No Folate, folinic or folic.

    Might do a lithium check. Thanks.
     
  14. silverseas2014

    silverseas2014

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    Here's where I'm at with the DQ: (maybe it will help)

    --I take 50 mg/day of Solgar Methylfolate (I take 25 mg in the morning and 25 mg around noon).
    --I take 1/4 tablet of Source Naturals' Dibencozide every day (each tablet is about 10 mg.)
    --I take 60 mg/day of Webber Naturals Methylcobalamin (30 mg in the morning and 30 mg around noon with my Methylfolate) *Webber Naturals is NOT one of the recommended brands, but I've had a good reaction to it and it's cheaper than other brands.
    --I take 1 capsule (855 mg) if Doctor's Best L-Carnitine Fumarate

    --I keep the ratio of Methylfolate to MethylB12 at about 1:1.3/.4/.5---I just feel better when I take slightly more MethylB12 than Methylfolate.

    --I am getting ready to step down the Methylfolate to 40 mg. a day--after being on 50 mg/day for over a month, I have started to experience some intestinal discomfort.... so back to a lower daily dose.
    --And in the next few months I will begin to stair-step down the Methylfolate to see if I have saturated my body (healed?) and can feel great on a lower dose...


    With the DQ, I also take the following every day, and consider them key to making the DQ effective:

    --3/4 a tablet of Advanced Research Lithium Orotate
    --as much Potassium as I need each day. I use Bulk Supplements' Potassium Gluconate. I put a 1/4 tsp in OJ up to six times a day.... not every day will be the same.

    In good health,
    Silverseas2014
     
  15. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Thanks @silverseas2014 that is helpful. Always good to see how others are attacking this thing.

    It may be a little premature, but I seem to be making some headway by simply cutting back the b-complex and increasing mb12 - 21mg a day for last two days, up from 15mg.

    The mfolate deficiency/insufficiency symptoms seem to be a result of not enough mb12.

    Nerve pains have settled a little in intensity too. Time will tell.
     

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