A New Decade of ME Research: The 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry presents the first in a series of articles on the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

How Many Minutes Of Slow Wave Sleep (Nrem 2-3) Sleep Do You Get?

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by SleeplesslyDying, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. SleeplesslyDying

    SleeplesslyDying

    Messages:
    3
    Likes:
    0
    I only get around 55 minutes of deep sleep every night as measured by my zeo headband. I spend most of the night in light sleep. I always feel fatigued. I can't find any reliable data on how much slow wave sleep one is supposed to get. If anyone here has used zeo or a sleep study, please inform me of this.
     
  2. msf

    msf Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes:
    4,454
    Does the headband measure that accurately? That´s pretty cool (the headband, not the lack of slow wave sleep).

    Do you have any gut issues? My sleep has improved considerably since I adopted the FODMAP diet. Yesterday (a good day), I slept from 1 until 7, and then again until 10. I figure I must have got some slow wave sleep in that time. Last year I don´t think I was getting any, because I would wake up every hour or so.

    NB. I also take Trazodone (150mg) but it only works well when I stick to the diet.
     
  3. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    340
    Truth or consequences, nm
    I find it immensely helpful to follow a regimen, when I eat, when I go to bed, not so much when I get up cause that's largely dependent on how I'm feeling what I eat, my environment and how active I have been. So I eat at 11:am and 5:pm, go to bed at 12:am get up around 9 or 10 usually. Try my damnedest not to nap during the day. No food (or carbs) 6hr before bed. With the exception sometimes immediately before bed I might have a banana or some strawberries or even some broccoli or some other vegetable low in carbs. Idea here is eating makes you drowsy so you don't want to do it too long before bed. Logic behind my methods mainly biological organisms have internal clocks called circadian rhythm. The consistency helps keep it consistent.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
    Advantage is when I meticulously follow this schedule I have virtually uninterrupted sleep. As a result I feel much more refreshed when I wake cause I had all the proper cycles of sleep at the proper times and intervals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep
    I suspect my gut issues have a lot to do with not sleeping at night. Going to bed hungry seems to eliminate this problem. I do drink lots of water especially when I am hungry at night before bed. Has no effect on my sleep other than I might have to get up to use the bathroom. But I reason the advantages of staying properly hydrated outweigh the disadvantage of waking at night.
     
  4. msf

    msf Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes:
    4,454
    It´s the other way round for me - the gut comes first. I guess we are a rather heterogeneous population. I try not to drink too much before bed, as I don´t want to have to wake up to urinate, but I find that what I eat also has an effect this.
     
    antares4141 likes this.
  5. Never Give Up

    Never Give Up Collecting improvements, until there's a cure.

    Messages:
    956
    Likes:
    3,949
    You need a full on sleep study from a board certified sleep specialist. Your zeo band is either inaccurate, as these devices tend to be, or you likely have a significant sleep disorder, one which can likely be treated. I have analyzed the sleep data of thousands of people with the full array of sleep and health problems, I can't recall a single case of so little stage 2 and 3 sleep.

    Slow wave sleep is technically stages 3 and 4 sleep, and does not include stage 2 sleep. The amount of sleep in each stage is compared to normative data based upon percentage of total sleep time spent in each stage, rather than actual minutes spent in those stages. What's normal depends upon your age, with children spending almost all of their sleep time in stage 3/4 sleep, and the elderly spending very little, and often times no time at all spent in stage 3/4 sleep, most of their time is spent in stage 2 sleep.

    Again, find yourself a board certified sleep specialist and get a full sleep study, he or she can probably help you.
     
    L'engle and SOC like this.
  6. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    340
    Truth or consequences, nm
    Not sure what you mean here. It does for me also. Why I have no food 6hrs before bedtime. I've identified a connection between my insomnia and eating or having large amounts of glucose in my system before bed.
     
  7. msf

    msf Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes:
    4,454
    I thought you said your gut issues were caused by not sleeping at night?
     
  8. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    340
    Truth or consequences, nm
    Actually I think I said the opposite. Below is what I actually said:
    "I suspect my gut issues have a lot to do with not sleeping at night. Going to bed hungry seems to eliminate this problem."
     
  9. msf

    msf Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Likes:
    4,454
    Haha, good point, I misread it. I don´t think eating vs not eating has a big effect on my sleep however, it´s more what I eat that affects it.
     
    antares4141 likes this.
  10. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    340
    Truth or consequences, nm
    Before I learned about gluten sensitivity I didn't think I had a gut problem at all. Which in hind sight is unbelievably stupid cause I have had chronic diarrhea for 18 years and for most of that time had issues with stomach bloating and feeling like I was being poisoned after meals. Which caused me to have to take long naps after lunch.
    One thing I learned about this illness is I really don't KNOW anything about it. Like I might not be sensitized to gluten & I might actually be wrong about my observations on myself regarding sleep & the timing of my meals. Maybe mold doesn't make me sick after all. I really really really doubt this. But it wouldn't be the first time I fooled myself and it's not going to be the last. It's why some physicians and authority figures think we are not sick at all. Their just taking this concept and ramping it up another notch. And why not? It's easy for them to say when someone else suffers the consequences of their error.
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,881
    Likes:
    8,180
    australia (brisbane)
    I can't put my finger on it but sometimes when i just cant nod off i have a craving for carbs , after eating carbs i can than fall asleep.

    I wonder if theres a connection between serotonin and sleep. Maybe the extra insulin produced from carbs helps drive tryptophan into the brain to make serotonin and melatonin . I normally eat a low carb diet and dont require carbs to sleep, just every so often i find this happens .

    Just an unproven theory?

    I suppose if one has gut problems then there could also be an issue making serotonin ? ?
     
    antares4141 likes this.
  12. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

    Messages:
    290
    Likes:
    340
    Truth or consequences, nm
    I tend to get drowsy when I eat something that makes my gut work. I suspect a soda would have the opposite effect. That might cause me to not be able to sleep. Where as so grapes or a banana would have a slow enough release of carbs that they might actually make me drowsy if I ate them soon enough before bed. Problem I suspect is you probably want your blood sugar low when you are asleep otherwise it might cause insomnia. Not knowing what I'm talking about just my suspicions as to why I sleep so well when I refrain from eating anything 6 hr's before bed.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  13. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    181
    U.S., Southeast
    Some readily accessible 'food affecting' supplements may offer some options. For example, several foods cause histamine release, like bananas, tomatoes, et al. which can wreak havoc on sleep. It can be blocked by Histame (Diamine Oxidase ~?). Blood sugar levels, e.g. spikes can be stabilized, sic lowered with Chromium, more specifically Chromium Picolinate.

    Since we know foods are the most ubiquitous (and most frequently abused) drugs it's still amazing the effects that diet
    changes can have on biosystems. Of course the correlations of bodily changes relative to changes of ingestion (of any substance) is open ended... . Finding the ones that work on an individual basis for a specific purpose is the trick!:wide-eyed:
     
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,881
    Likes:
    8,180
    australia (brisbane)

    I know what you mean. Generally if i eat carbs i try not to eat it alone without fats and protein as it helps stabilize sugar and insulin levels and hopefully dont wake up due to hunger.

    Its something alot of drs dont get but we get it as we have been dealingwith it for years and can see the relationship with certain food and sleep patterns.
     
    Stretched likes this.
  15. SleeplesslyDying

    SleeplesslyDying

    Messages:
    3
    Likes:
    0
    I find the zeo band accurately record the times of my night awakenings so I trust it is accurate in other respects as well. Also I do feel fatigued all the time which is the reason why I purchased the zeo headband, to investigate the problem. I do find inaccuracies sometimes, in that it would show REM sleep at times when I was clearly awake but as far as the SWS reading is concerned I believe it is accurate, and it has always been 50-55 minutes in total. Still I'm planning to undergo a sleep test once just to be sure.
    Yes I realized slow wave is stage 3 & 4, not stage 2. I spend most of my night in light sleep which is believe is stage 1 & 2. There are multiple physical issues I'm suffering from, all of which I can only attribute to the lack of sufficient SWS.
    1. Erectile dysfunction: I'm suffering from E.D. and doctors could find no physical cause and they just shrug their shoulders saying its all in my head. From my own research I attribute it to the lack of SWS: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15504427 E.D. is my biggest worry and it is ruining my life.

    2. High blood sugar: Endocrinologists won't tell you this, but SWS is more crucial than exercise in controlling blood sugar levels http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242689/ , and I can confirm this from my own experience. I'm a very active guy exercising every day and eat low glycemic foods but my blood sugar spikes above 100 consistently on SWS deprived nights (which is almost every night) and sometimes even to 140. On the few days when I get a slightly better sleep (but never goes beyond an hour of SWS) it will be around 97. Still bad, and I believe if I got more SWS it would be far better. My sister who is a couch potato but sleeps well has a better sugar level of around 90. I tried to get her to wear the headband when she visited me but it had fallen off.

    3. Unable to concentrate: I feel fatigued all day and am unable to carry out my day job which is mentally demanding.

    Please don't hijack the thread to discuss gut issues. I don't have them, and I'm more interested in finding the ideal amount of SWS.
     
  16. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    181
    U.S., Southeast
    If you want to lower your blood sugar, again, re above: Blood sugar levels, and spikes can be stabilized, sic lowered with Chromium, more specifically Chromium Picolinate... .

    You can get these supplements at any health food store; and you can read about them and dosing in any number of credible sources, e.g. drugs.com/supplesments or labdoor.com, et al. If you want the heady, scientific stuff I can recommend texts that discuss the biochemistry of these substances.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page