How likely is high vit. C a mast cell degranulator?

[sillysocks84]

What I want to understand is:

1. what it means for c to recycle gluthathione? And whether that is the best option, or...
2. if low dose c is better because it doesn't put a demand on glutathione?

Sorry, I don't have too big of a science background.

 

[sillysocks84]

Thank you! @Sushi

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know if this has been said before, but vit C chelates copper and copper is needed byt he enzyme DAO
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10613762
Plasma diamine oxidase activity is greater in copper-adequate than copper-marginal or copper-deficient rats

 

[Gingergrrl]

What I understand from this (which could be wrong!) is that mid-range doses could deplete glutathione but that low would not effect glutathione levels and high might actually increase glutathione.

@Sushi That is sort of how I interpreted it, too. Would approx 1500 mg of oral Vit C be considered "low dose" and therefore not effect glutathione one way or the other (just neutral?)

What I want to understand is:

1. what it means for c to recycle gluthathione? And whether that is the best option, or...
2. if low dose c is better because it doesn't put a demand on glutathione?

Sorry, I don't have too big of a science background.

@sillysocks84 I wanted to know the same thing and suspect my science background is less than yours

 

[Gingergrrl]

I don't know if this has been said before, but vit C chelates copper and copper is needed byt he enzyme DAO
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10613762
Plasma diamine oxidase activity is greater in copper-adequate than copper-marginal or copper-deficient rats

@Gondwanaland This is another issue that I am trying to understand but not grasping. What is the relationship between copper and MCAS/histamine intolerance? I take Daosin with every meal per my doctor but he never told me to check my copper level or to take copper with it. When you say Vit C chelates copper is this a good or bad thing? Also when you say copper is needed by the enzyme DAO does adding copper *raise histamine or *decrease histamine? Nothing you explain is too basic and I want to grasp this one.

 

[Ema]

I have this from Rich (RIP) too:

"one is about the Glutathione Depletion-

-Methylation Cycle Block Hypothesis for the Pathogenesis of CFS.

It's based on my past work on glutathione depletion in CFS, and also

on what's going on in autism research, where Jill and

coworkers have found that glutathione depletion there is linked to a

block in the methylation cycle. As I've mentioned before, it looks

to me as though the same thing is going on in at least a major

subset of PWCs.



So what I've been doing today is to try to figure out what the

effects of a blocked methylation cycle are, and to see if these are

things that show up in CFS. One of the several things I've come

upon is the fact that the deactivation of histamine requires

methylation reactions. Thus, if a person has a blocked methylation

cycle and thus decreased capacity for methylation (because the ratio

of S-adenosylmethionine to S-adenosylhomocysteine drops, and this

blocks the methyltransferase enzymes), then I think we should expect

that if they have an allergic reaction to something, the histamine

will rise higher and stay up longer than it would in a person with

normal methylation capacity. Therefore, the allergic reaction would

be expected to be more severe.



This would explain why, even though the prevalence of IgE allergies

in PWCs is not significantly different from that in the general

population, the PWCs would experience more severe reactions when

they did get them. It would also explain why allergies they had

prior to developing CFS were observed to get worse after their CFS

onset."

 

[sillysocks84]

@Gondwanaland so if we take a lot of c, we should check our copper levels? If they become low that looks like it can cause some disturbing issues.

 

[Ema]

i That is sort of how I interpreted it, too. Would approx 1500 mg of oral Vit C be considered "low dose" and therefore not effect glutathione one way or the other (just neutral?)

I'd be very surprised if anyone had ever studied this in depth but from what @Sushi posted it seems that 0-3g would be low dose from 3g up to bowel tolerance could put strain on glutathione and bowel tolerance doses could help increase glutathione.

But I think that is all speculation because bowel tolerance doses can vary widely. For example when I was feeling pretty well, bowel tolerance was less than 3g for me but now it's up over 20g again.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Ema So if you have a blocked methylation cycle (which I do per 23andMe) than this also raises your histamine and allergic reactions? I did not realize this but I do not tolerate the methylation supplements at micro doses and my mold doc (at least for now) said it is better not to open up the pathway and leave it alone. Can glutathione fix this problem (if I tolerate it?) I wish Rich was here to ask .

 

[Ema]

I think the low glutathione is a result of the methylation cycle block and that is separate from the blocked methyltransferase enzymes that cause the histamine levels to rise higher than normal.

Fixing the methylation cycle should improve both glutathione and methyltransferase enzymes but I do not think that glutathione has a direct effect on histamine. I haven't studied it though and could very well be wrong. Maybe @Critterina has some thoughts?

 

[sillysocks84]

bowel tolerance doses could help increase glutathione.

Large doses best then, but may vary.

 

[Gingergrrl]

and bowel tolerance doses could help increase glutathione.

So does this mean that any dose that the bowel tolerates raises glutathione? If I tolerate the 1500 mg per day, even though it's in the low dose range, if I tolerate it bowel wise than it could raise glutathione (or is this not what is meant?)

ETA: does "bowel tolerance" actually mean "intolerance" in this case?

 

[Ema]

So does this mean that any dose that the bowel tolerates raises glutathione? If I tolerate the 1500 mg per day, even though it's in the low dose range, if I tolerate it bowel wise than it could raise glutathione (or is this not what is meant?)

Bowel tolerance is the amount of Vit C that you have taken right before you get liquid diarrhea.

 

[Ema]

Large doses best then, but may vary.

That does seem to go along with people saying you need to take bowel tolerance doses of C to benefit from it.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Fixing the methylation cycle should improve both glutathione and methyltransferase enzymes but I do not think that glutathione has a direct effect on histamine.

Thanks and I was not sure and had not heard that before. In my case, we are hoping the glutathione reduces the inflammation in my lungs and entire system which will hopefully help me breathe better and maybe indirectly help with MCAS, too? I have no idea how it effects the methylation cycle!

 

[sillysocks84]

Thanks and I was not sure and had not heard that before. In my case, we are hoping the glutathione reduces the inflammation in my lungs and entire system which will hopefully help me breathe better and maybe indirectly help with MCAS, too? I have no idea how it effects the methylation cycle!

Yes, good luck! It sounds like it may be the case. Inflammation is what mast cells cause so bringing down any of that may take a lot of burden off your system.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland This is another issue that I am trying to understand but not grasping. What is the relationship between copper and MCAS/histamine intolerance? I take Daosin with every meal per my doctor but he never told me to check my copper level or to take copper with it.

Having adequate copper levels will possibly reduce your supplement needs of DAOsin in my understanding

When you say Vit C chelates copper is this a good or bad thing?

Many people take vit C with aiming to lower copper. For me personally copper is a usefull supplement as I get anemia if I don't take it from time to time (always with zinc, otherwise I get liver congestion).

Also when you say copper is needed by the enzyme DAO does adding copper *raise histamine or *decrease histamine? Nothing you explain is too basic and I want to grasp this one.

You take DAO because your DAO enzymes aren't enough or they don't have enough co-factors (copper) to function, I suppose. I assume your supplement contains enough copper for the DAO enzymes in it to function. However, it is possible that not everyone will have a good outcome from taking copper. I don't know all the possible contexts about it.

@Gondwanaland so if we take a lot of c, we should check our copper levels? If they become low that looks like it can cause some disturbing issues.

I am not sure about the accuracy of tests. Many argue that most people are copper toxic despite lows results. Vitamin B2 should improve copper bioavailability, but that is in regard of RBCs synthesis I guess.

Personally I supplemented 500mcg Copper with 8mg Zinc for a few weeks and it was enough to solve my anemia problem.

 

[Sushi]

(which I do per 23andMe)

23andMe doesn't tell you if you have partially blocked methylation cycle. It only tells indicates whether or not you have SNPs which may or may not be contributing to a partially blocked methylation cycle.

The only test I know of that tells you the "real time" situation with your methylation cycle is Health Diagnostics Methylation panel. It tells you what is actually happening, not what could be happening.

So does this mean that any dose that the bowel tolerates raises glutathione? If I tolerate the 1500 mg per day, even though it's in the low dose range, if I tolerate it bowel wise than it could raise glutathione (or is this not what is meant?)

No, this is not what is meant. I think @Ema mentioned that when Rich uses the term bowel tolerance it would mean experimenting with dosing C until you got runny stools, then backing down just a bit until you don't.

 

[Gingergrrl]

You take DAO because your DAO enzymes aren't enough or they don't have enough co-factors (copper) to function, I suppose. I assume your supplement contains enough copper for the DAO enzymes in it to function. However, it is possible that not everyone will have a good outcome from taking copper. I don't know all the possible contexts about it.

Thanks and that's what it seemed like from my attempted research (that not everyone would have a good outcome from copper) and I couldn't quite tell what it did for MCAS. I think I will just stick with the DAOsin for now b/c I tolerate it and hope that it is doing something along with everything else that I take.

23andMe doesn't tell you if you have partially blocked methylation cycle. It only tells indicates whether or not you have SNPs which may or may not be contributing to a partially blocked methylation cycle.

I did not get this, thank you for clarifying. I am compound heterozygous on the two MTHFR SNP's and was told by my doctor that this meant I had a methylation cycle block which I accepted as fact.

 

[sillysocks84]

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...2-shift-and-possible-drugs-to-alter-it.15835/

@Gingergrrl this addresses gluthathione and how it can shift us back from th2 to th1. Th2 causes us allergies. Also says something about methylation block.