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How do you improve detox impairment?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by minniemom2011, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Joopiter.

    I don't have a dose recommendation for TMG, but Dr. Amy probably does.

    Dr. Shoemaker offers a visual contrast sensitivity test on his website www.chronicneurotoxins.com It isn't very expensive. He has found that this test is a good indicator for the presence of biotoxins in the brain. It is also sensitive to toxicity from some organic solvents and also heavy metals, which are also neurotoxins. He has shown that as neurotoxins are removed, the performance on this test improves. I wonder if methyl B12 is methylating mercury and moving it around in your brain.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    The things I have seen labeled "detox" that are not actually detox.


    1. Glutathione "detox" reaction - induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
    2. NAC "detox reaction" - induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
    3. "detox" when folic acid is being taken - paradoxical folate deficiency, induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
    4. "detox" when folinic acid is being taken - paradoxical folate deficiency, induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
    5. "detox" with mb12/mfolate when certain symptoms occur such as muscle spasms, heart palpitations and mood changes which often are falling potassium levels, hypokalemia. This is genuinely potentially dangerous and needs to be recognized, not called by the wrong name and treated incorrectly.
    And as mb12/mfolate are likely to induce multiple deficiencies if everything needed isn't taken I suspect much more is from these induced deficiencies than anything else. So like on the old TV program To Tell The Truth, "Will the real DETOX symptoms please stand up?" Let's see if we can identify them and eliminate all other possibilities. I think it likely that they do exist but finding them amongst all the misnomers is difficult.
  3. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Example of MB12 induced deficiencies (taurine and magnesium)?

    I've been wondering about taurine in particular...

    Can methylation interventions induce symptoms of taurine insufficiency in some of us?
    This is from Jon Pangborn, Autism: Effective Biomedical Treatments, where he suggests that if both beta alanine and taurine are high (like in minniemoms Nutreval results) that taurine wasting is a strong possibility. In a survey of around 60 autistic kids Pangborn found 62% to have taurine deficiency, or taurine wasting, after dietary intervention but before methylation intervention.
    This from Health Insider and seems to be line with what minniemom's Nutreval commentary suggests as a possibility under "taurine".

    ...http://www.medicalinsider.com/nutritional.html#taurine

    Is it reasonable to expect that for a percentage of us some of the symptoms above might be experienced initially at least after supplementing methylB12? And how about the other forms of B12?

    My book is a few years old now and I don't know if these recommendations still stand, but in 2005 Pangborn with the Autism Research Institute strongly recommended taurine supplementation after B6 and magnesium are on board, but before methylation treatment.
    I'm not sure but I think Amy Yasko might disagree with that as a blanket recommendation. I'm not familiar enough with her full protocol.
    girlfromeurope and dannybex like this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Anne_likes_red,

    Is it reasonable to expect that for a percentage of us some of the symptoms above might be experienced initially at least after supplementing methylB12?

    I really don't have an answer for that. The items that there is no doubt of by pragmatic effect are Methylfolate and potassium followed in no particular order by Vit A, D, E, C, B-complex, zinc and magnesium. The vitamins are all involved in building tissue and lack of any of these can bring things to a grinding halt. The lacks that are pragmatically determined to correct onset of heart arrhythmias are b-complex twice a day and potassium. I am sure that other items are no doubt involved. The catch is that most of those are not pragmatically resolved with additional items before they typically fade away. The startup symptoms fade away typically in the 10 day to 3 month period, some quickly and some more prolonged.

    And how about the other forms of B12?

    There could be some similarities with adb12 in that it's lack can strongly delay muscle tissue formation and neurological repair both of which put a strain on resources.

    Let's look at the difference with potassium, as a marker of some of the circumstances of such pressure on resources. I had low potassium from each of several items and my potassium was typically on the low end of "normal" in those days, about 4.2, so it was very sensitive to such changes. This occurred with mb12, adb12, l-carnitine fumarate, SAM-e and Methylfolate. It also occurred with glutathione but probably for other reasons since I was undergoing tissue breakdown instead..

    With mb12/adb12 the low potassium symptoms are very common (perhaps 1/3 or more of those with significant responses) but not well recognized because the symptoms are highly variable and the literature around cycbl and hycbl says that it is anecdotal and "rare". With potassium relief can be had in 30 minutes or less so the relief is easily tied to potassium.

    Based on my own multiple experiences, methylation can start up within a couple of hours with mb12 and/or methylfolate, depending upon the cause of breakdown. It's like going from a cranky 1940 outboard to a modern electric start motor. From the start I have noticed that people who have most everything else (vitamins and minerals anyway) started first, or at the latest at the same time, have a smoother startup, though not less intense, just less rocky without all the start and stop and healing happening quickly, so things start dropping off the list within a couple of weeks.

    Another consideration. It had been thought for a long time that cycbl and hycbl did not have a dose related healing curve. Newer studies on IF based absorption and binding into the transport system places the dose effectiveness range at 1-100mcg oral dosing. 100mcg is where the binding system, HTCII by measurement is saturated. Previous studies were done with gnerally higher doses and many of them in people without IF mediated absorption. Mb12 on the other hand has dose proportionate healing from 1-20,000mcg sublingual or thereabouts, perhaps 1-5000 injected SC and then one discontinuous increase at around 50,000mcg sublingual, perhaps 7.5-12.5mg injected SC. By my own experience and observation of others, I would suggest that perhaps 50% of all the healing, and b12 effects takes place with the first 250mcg absorbed and a converging series (ie 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 ...) after that as the dose increases. Again, this would appear to indicate a whole lot more would be going on at one time with mb12 than any other form

    Just looking at the possible relative incidence of hypokalemia it looks pretty easy to say that the mb12 is far more active than hycbl or cycbl or adb12 for that matter for any number of reasons. Once started the symptoms are constantly changing until things drop off the list one by one. So if there were a lot of biochemical changes that kept changing until a new equilibrium is reached, I would expect more changes of all kinds happening faster with mb12.

    The symptoms of taurine wasting appear to be generally consistant with b12 deficiency rather than appearing on startup but many such symptoms at least appear to intensify on startup. The actual cause is difficult to say with any specificity.

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