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How do you decide when it's time to increase methylB12,methylfolate

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by juniemarie, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    and when you are taking enough? I am following Fredds protocol taking:
    800 mcg methylfolate
    1 mg methylB12
    2.5 mg adB12


    I take 2 divided doses
    I have not started the LCF yet
    Have not noticed any symptoms that would indicate low potassium. I feel better than before I started the protocol but not exactly sure what my next step should be. Increase something, add LCF first and see what happens?
    What indications or markers should I be looking at/for to indicate a next step.
    I would like to hear from others who are on Fredds protocol . thanks juniemarie
     
    minkeygirl likes this.
  2. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    I'm starting on methylfolate soon (a very low dose) and adding 1000 mcg Hydroxy B12. I currently take my 1000 mcg MB12 in the mornings so I have plenty of time for it to dissolve.

    She told me to take the methylfolate in the morning with food. I'm waiting to hear back from her on when to take the HB12.
     
  3. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @juniemarie: I'd add about half a cap of LCF per day and see what happens. That will complete Freddd's "Deadlock Quartet" for you. If you then get any of the symptoms from the paradoxical folate insufficiency list then start increasing folate incrementally. If you get potassium deficiency symptoms then add some potassium.

    "Enough" is a relative term, in that what is enough for some is not enough for others, or what is too much for some is not enough for others. I think as long as you're feeling good then you're taking "enough".
     
  4. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    @whodathunkit What is LCF? And the "Deadlock Quartet"? ( dumb it down please).

    Also, what are the potassium deficiency symptoms and folate insufficiency symptoms? I tried Freddd's protocol on my own 2 years ago and felt really horrible so I had to stop.

    I'm have an NP to do this for me but I'd still would like to know what is what in case I have problems.

    Found a thread that talks about the deadlock quartet but I'd like to know the symptoms if I have problems. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Here is a list of the usual folate and low potassium symptoms. Watch out for low potassium. That can hit hard around second or third day.


    Version 1.2 12/08/2013


    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
  6. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    @Martial. I can't read that.

    I can't remember what happened last time but I felt very unwell. I know it was early in the process.

    Is there a simple list I can refer to to know if I need more Potassium for example?
     
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    hmm... one sec..

    maybe this link?

    http://www.drugs.com/cg/hypokalemia.html

    Though it is not dicussed here, low potassium can also cause very notable psychatric and cognitive issues due to nerve impulses not firing.. Things like depression, hallucinations, amnesia type things, etc..
     
  8. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    @Martial. Interestingly, or not, I am already tired, have constipation from IBS, feel me heartbeat and have muscle weakness. One thing it didn't mention was muscle cramping which I think is a big one for low potassium.

    What are the signs and symptoms of hypokalemia?
    • Tiredness
    • Constipation
    • Fast or irregular heartbeats
    • Frequent urination or urinating large amounts
    • Muscle twitching or skin tingling
    • Muscle weakness
     
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  9. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Muscle cramps are the most recognized symptom of low potassium actually.. alongside everything else you mentioned. I would take some now lol
     
    Victronix likes this.
  10. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    Wouldn't it be a riot if that was it? When I can get up, I'll get my potassium down from the back of the top shelf in the kitchen cabinet.
     
  11. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    hahaha guess we will find out, keep in mind you will need at least 3,000 grams extra a day to make up for those losses.
     
  12. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    See, that is where I'm lost. Make up for what 3000 that I am losing how? I do remember someone saying you have to space out the amount of potassium you take during the day because too much at once is not good.

    I just took 99 mgs to see if anything happens. So far I got nothing. I just want to know what to look out for and then what to do if it happens.

    See why I need a doctor? I'll call you Dr. Martial!
     
  13. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    haha well it is hard on the stomach if you take over 1000mg at a time, so yes sometimes it helps to take 600-900mg three or more times a day, or eat a lot of bananas, avacodos, tomatoes, sweet potatos, potatos, yams, carrots, and or oranges if you have them laying around, also raisins, and coconut water.. All of this are very packed with potassium especially concentrated forms like carrot juice.
     
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  14. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    I'm doing ok then food wise. I drink coconut water every morning, have raisins every morning and eat tomatoes and potatoes daily. Oh and my treat of Sweet Potato Pop Chips every night.

    I'm sure I can use some supplementation but I'll talk to my doc about it at my next appt.

    I'm not getting my Metafolin until next month and then I'm going to start at about 100 mcg (waiting to hear from her about the exact amount she wants vs 1/16 of a 100 mcg capsule) and get out of this fog I'm currently in.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  15. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @minkeygirl: I never had muscle cramping but had weakness and tiredness with hypokalemia that resolved when I started taking enough potassium to keep up with my body's demands for it.

    Always take potassium with food, as it can cause stomach upset. I like to take mine in some juice instead of in capsules, since capsules are harder on my stomach than potassium powder in juice.

    Also don't overdo potassium. Too much can give you diarrhea.

    LCF = L-carnitine fumarate. One of the four supplements that Freddd says is essential for getting methylation going properly. He calls these four supplements "The Deadlock Quartet". They are:

    • methylcobalamin
    • adenosylcobalamin
    • methylfolate
    • LCF
    Folate insufficiency occurs when you're not taking enough folate to keep up with your body's demands for it.

    Freddd explains it better than I can. I don't have full understanding yet.

    But basically, if you start a healing reaction/methylation with folate, your body wants to continue. But if you're not giving it enough folate to continue, it's like a car running out of gas. It can't keep going.

    So if you're not taking enough folate, and your body stops the healing reaction because it ran out of folate, it can cause some or all the symptoms Martial posted above.

    The solution is to take more folate until your symptoms disappear. It's like filling up a car with an empty gas tank. Once the car has enough gas it can go again.

    When increasing folate you also need to increase methylcobalamin intake. Methylfolate needs methylcobalamin to work properly.

    This "increasing folate until reaching equilibrium" approach does not seem to work for everyone. Sometimes the symptoms before equilibrium is reached are too difficult to work through.

    Also, sometimes other problems need to be taken care of first, before methylation can be properly undertaken.

    Some of the things that might need to be done before methylation include heavy metal detox or resolving sulfur issues. Everyone is different so it can be hard to say.

    From what I've read, you are very sick. So it would be a very personal decision as to whether or not you take the route of increasing folate and methylcobalamin when it seems to be making you sick. I would not ever say you "should" or you "shouldn't" do this. It's your decision.
     
  16. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    Thanks. I need to read this another day. I'm really fogged today. Even if I could read it I'll forget it before I finish a sentence!

    once I get going I know there are people here I can ask

    BTW, Diahrea would be good since I have IBS-C.

    I have an NP guiding me so everything I need to do ahead of time has been done. I just wanted to know things so if I have a problem I know what to do.

    I had no treatment for years and went down hill. So yes I'm sick but mostly from incredible fatigue and cog crap. I have nothing to lose so I'm trying anything at this point.
     
  17. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @minkeygirl: I hear you. I wish you all the best. And not just because in my head you're the cute cat with a colander on her head. :p

    I hope one day you find it possible read up on Freddd's posts. His journey with these supplements is very inspiring. He was at the same place as you (no treatment or wrong treatment for years) and figured he had nothing to lose.
     
  18. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Narcissism = lack of self awareness

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    It's a rice bowl. LOL

    No way I can read. That much. I'm letting my NP do the heavy lifting in this.
     
  19. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Your cute kitty pulls it off perfectly ;) Wishing you the best for your treatment!
     
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  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    If you haven't been on the protocol very long, be aware that there can be a honeymoon period before methylation really gets going. Those doses are pretty high for starting doses.

    Please read Start Low and Go Slow and Roadblocks to Successful Methylation linked in my signature.
     
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