How do we stop heart disease (Atherosclerosis, Arteriolosclerosis, Arteriosclerosis, calcification)

[Timaca]

Timaca, You said your lipids came back high. Could you consider taking some of those supplements in link and see if that makes any difference

I will study the oil question as it relates to heart disease further. I know Heart association will want oils diminished but that is not addressing the root cause. They say keep saturated fats 10% of calories which seems ok but we need to understand what is causing problem rather than some blind advice.

Hi~ I continued to eat a very low fat, whole foods, essentially vegan diet but also watched the glycemic index of the foods I was eating....and my lipid labs improved. I did not need to take supplements. You can read about it in my blog post here if interested in more details.

 

[pamojja]

Cholesterol reduction is mentioned as one of the few beneficial effects mentioned (I realise some may not view a reduction in cholesterol as beneficial, but I don't agree with this). The main interesting thing for me about the studies is the reduction in arterial blockages, improved blood-flow, and the reduction in cardiac events.

Cholesterol reduction, if really high of the dangerous kind, is of course a good sign once the underlying chronic inflammation has abated. But again, surgically removing blockages with its temporary improved blood-flow and even reduction of cardiac events with standard of care treatment don't result in the same amount of preventing mortality again.

Statins Given for 5 Years for Heart Disease Prevention (With Known Heart Disease)

83 for mortality

In Summary, for those who took the statin for 5 years:

Benefits in NNT

• 1 in 83 were helped (life saved)
• 1 in 39 were helped (preventing non-fatal heart attack)
• 1 in 125 were helped (preventing stroke)

Harms in NNH

• 1 in 100 were harmed (develop diabetes*)
• 1 in 10 were harmed (muscle damage)

*The development of diabetes is one such unanticipated harm found in a recent large study and it seems likely therefore that this applies to the data above, although this is a best guess.


Blood Pressure Medicines for Five Years to Prevent Death, Heart Attacks, and Strokes

125 for mortality

In Summary, for those who took anti-hypertensives:

Benefits in NNT

• 1 in 125 were helped (prevented death)
• 1 in 67 were helped (prevented stroke)
• 1 in 100 were helped (prevented heart attack*)

Harms in NNH

• 1 in 10 were harmed (medication side effects, stopping the drug)

*fatal and non-fatal myocardial infarction and sudden or rapid cardiac death


Aspirin to Prevent Cardiovascular Disease in Patients with Known Heart Disease or Strokes

333 for mortality

In Summary, for those who took the aspirin:

Benefits in NNT

• 1 in 50 were helped (cardiovascular problem prevented)
• 1 in 333 were helped (prevented death)
• 1 in 77 were helped (prevented non-fatal heart attack)
• 1 in 200 were helped (prevented non-fatal stroke)

Harms in NNH

• 1 in 400 were harmed (major bleeding event*)

*Required hospital admission and transfusion


Coronary Stenting for Non-Acute Coronary Disease Compared to Medical Therapy

None for mortality

In Summary, for those who received the stenting:

Benefits in NNT

• None were helped (life saved, heart attack prevented, symptoms reduced)

Harms in NNH

• 1 in 50 were harmed (complications such as bleeding, stroke, kidney damage)

Again, already highly occluded blockages rarely rapture, while less occluded arteries are simply not recognized for the danger they pose. Only CAC score can measure all plaques in total, and if they together grow as they usually do exponentially at 30% yearly rate, even on statins and low-fat and with all other Farmingham risk factors in check, it's a certain death sentence. If this increase isn't even known off, and therefore failing in taking countermeasures.

 

[prioris]

You know, I don't feel motivated to get CAC score because when all is said and done - what will be the plan to stop or reverse it. It's great that people have gotten them as a monitor tool so they can report to us on what worked and didn't. Maybe at some later time when other things stabilize and completely calm down, I may get a CAC score. What is cost ... i saw $100 to $400

from my research into various calcium scans, there are downsides. they will not catch all the calcium so score of 0 doesn't mean that everything is ok ... on the other hand, it's really about using them in a practical way where one can see trends and some level of measurement even if their not perfect and have flaws. i think there are more advanced scans that can catch more but getting access is more difficult and probably very costly

I have to prioritize on liver / gallbladder / kidney / neuropathy and make sure they get completely stabilized before I focus back on heart disease.

 

[Timaca]

If anyone is interested in some talks on plant based eating, there will be 3 talks, an hour long each on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The speakers are Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Kris Carr and Dr. Neal Barnard. Hosted by John and Ocean Robbins. Here's the link if interested. https://thriving.foodrevolution.org/?orid=75&opid=269

 

[prioris]

I plan on adding Gamma E which has ability to quench nitric oxide radicals to prevent artery damage. I already take Omega 3 stuff.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lls-and-nitric-oxide.44262/page-2#post-857302

Human studies indicate benefits with supplemental doses ranging from 100 mg to 800 mg of gamma tocopherol a day. A review of the scientific literature indicates that most people should supplement with at least 200 mg of gamma tocopherol each day.

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazi...tocopherol-continues-to-be-overlooked/page-01

As far as Omega 6, GLA has a lot of benefits even for health. What I could see happening if the Omega 6 oils weren't metabolized well in some people. CLA the conjugated kind has also benefited me. Besides weight gain and I just remember it curing my digestive heart burn also.

http://www.umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/omega6-fatty-acids

 

[prioris]

Saturated Fat Does Not Clog the Arteries: Coronary Heart Disease Is a Chronic Inflammatory Condition
This is actually an editorial published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. But more than that, it is a systematic review and meta-analysis of a number of observational studies.2 Jumping right to its conclusion, the analysis showed no association, in healthy adults, between saturated fat consumption and:

• All-cause mortality
• Coronary heart disease (CHD)
• CHD mortality
• Ischemic stroke
• Type 2 diabetes

Essentially, the authors concluded that coronary artery disease pathogenesis and treatment "urgently require a paradigm shift." Despite popular belief among doctors and the public, the study categorically concluded that the conceptual model of dietary saturated fat clogging a pipe is just plain wrong. As cardiologist, Dr. Aseem Malholtra, one of the study's authors said in an interview, "One thing that's very clear when you look at the totality of the evidence: saturated fat does not clog the heart arteries. And sadly, for many years -- for decades, in fact -- this has been the primary focus of treatment of heart disease and public health advice."3

Similarly, in the secondary prevention of CHD, the authors observed that their meta-analysis revealed that there is no benefit from reduced fat, including saturated fat, on myocardial infarction (heart attacks), cardiovascular mortality, or all-cause mortality. And finally, as the researchers stated, it is instructive to note that in an angiographic study of postmenopausal women with CHD (one of the studies that the meta-analysis looked at), a greater intake of saturated fat was actually associated with less progression of atherosclerosis, whereas carbohydrate and polyunsaturated fat intake were associated with greater progression.4

According to the authors, the best predictor of heart disease risk involves a high total cholesterol (TC) to high-density lipoprotein (HDL) ratio, not low-density lipoprotein. You might want to read that sentence again. It's pretty much the opposite of what your doctor has been telling you for years. Instead, the researchers explained that dietary changes, such as replacing refined carbohydrates with healthful high-fat foods including olive oil and nuts, can significantly reduce the high TC to HDL ratio. The reason for getting rid of the refined carbohydrates, as cardiologist Dr. Michael Farkouh said, is that when the body becomes resistant to insulin, an inflammatory response is triggered. "What this editorial really brought to light was that your diet, if it's a diet rich in carbohydrates, can be associated with what's called insulin resistance. That allows your innate inflammatory process in the body to attack the vessel wall and start the process of hardening of the arteries."5


https://jonbarron.org/heart-health/new-information-saturated-fat#

 

[Eastman]

This was in the news recently.

Fred A. Kummerow, an Early Opponent of Trans Fats, Dies at 102

Fred A. Kummerow, a German-born biochemist and lifelong contrarian whose nearly 50 years of advocacy led to a federal government ban on the use of trans-fatty acids in processed foods, a ruling that could prevent tens of thousands of premature deaths a year, died on Wednesday at his home in Urbana, Ill. He was 102.

...

Professor Kummerow was one of the first scientists to suggest that the saturated fat in butter, cheese and meats did not contribute to the clogging of arteries and was in fact beneficial in moderate amounts. This hypothesis, controversial at the time, was proved correct.

His own diet, he said, included red meat, whole milk and eggs scrambled in butter.

 

[prioris]

Question and Answer

I just got cholesterol test results and the TC/HDL ratio is 3.5. What is the risk factor and what does the number mean?
--

I'm glad you asked this question since deciphering your results can be confusing. The total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio is a number that is helpful in predicting atherosclerosis, the process of fatty buildup in the walls of the arteries. The number is obtained by dividing total cholesterol by HDL (good) cholesterol. For example, if a person has a total cholesterol of 200 mg/dL and an HDL cholesterol level of 50 mg/dL, the ratio would be 4.0. A high ratio indicates a higher risk of heart attack while a low ratio indicates a lower risk. High total cholesterol (an indicator that your body has a lot of the lipoproteins that contribute to atherosclerosis) and low HDL cholesterol increases the ratio, so that scenario is undesirable. Conversely, low total cholesterol and high HDL cholesterol lowers the ratio and is good news.

The goal is to keep the ratio below 5.0; the optimum ratio is 3.5. But even though this ratio can be a powerful predictor of heart disease risk, it is not used as a sole indicator for therapy. So while this ratio will help you understand your risk, keep in mind that your physician will be making treatment choices based upon your other lipoprotein numbers, specifically your LDL and HDL levels.

============================================
Reports from the Framingham Heart Study suggest that for men, a total cholesterol-to-HDL ratio of 5 signifies average risk for heart disease; 3.4, about half the average risk; and 9.6, about double the average risk.
============================================
Wouldn't trust most physicians to make treatment choice ... LOL

The last time I got tested was Feb 2015

Total Cholesterol (CHOL) is 275.0
HDL Cholesterol is 44.2

CHOL/HDL = 6.2

It's good that a better marker can be used with standard tests.

I notice southwestern florida does these Ultrafast CT Heart scan and charges $99. Not too bad.
If I catch up with my other health sh** (i fix one problem and another crops up), i may drive there and get one just for heck of it. The downside is the results could be horrifying ... 400+ ... maybe better not to know ... LOL.

How does this number relate to the calcium scans. Any info.

 

[pamojja]

How does this number relate to the calcium scans.Any info.

It doesn't very well. With high traditional risk factors - including cholesterol, blood pressure, current smoking and diabetes - actually 35% of a study population had a zero score. On the other hand with very low traditional risk factors 15% had a CAC score above 100, and would actually be considered very high risk.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news...g_those_considered_at_either_low_or_high_risk

 

[Gondwanaland]

My TC/HDL rates are
Currently 2.45
One year ago 2.82
2 yrs ago 3.42
3 yrs ago 2.32

Still I have full developed plaque in both carotids.

No processed foods, trans fats or refined oils since 2009.

If I had to point out culprits it would be full fat dairy.

I have the genetics for high HDL, but also for CVD.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Still I have full developed plaque in both carotids.

No processed foods, trans fats or refined oils since 2009.

If I had to point out culprits it would be full fat dairy.

OR I am missing the right foods.
Foods highest in Gamma Tocopherol

 

[pamojja]

Still I have full developed plaque in both carotids.

What are your max. carotids intimal thickness (CIMT) in each? Has there been any change up or down since your change to unprocessed foods in 2009? You blame dairy, has this indeed been unprocessed too?

Any other intuitions what could be to blame?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Has there been any change up or down since your change to unprocessed foods in 2009?

I have only one US from one year ago (one non-obstructive, the other one will hopefully turn into non-obstructive with time).

You blame dairy, has this indeed been unprocessed too?

Yes, strictly. The less processed (i.e. A2 casein, green pastured) the more inflammatory

Any other intuitions what could be to blame?

It eludes me

 

[prioris]

It doesn't very well. With high traditional risk factors - including cholesterol, blood pressure, current smoking and diabetes - actually 35% of a study population had a zero score. On the other hand with very low traditional risk factors 15% had a CAC score above 100, and would actually be considered very high risk.

Even though that ratio may improve things on a statistical level vs the traditional markers, hopkins saying it is really not adequate. So the ultrafast CT heart scan (you lie on hard table for around 10 minutes) is what to get done if one wants much better accuracy ...

Here is place to find heart scanning in your state. Cost $99 out of pocket so affordable
Type in zip code ... Find Scan Centers in your area

http://www.scandirectory.com/

Closest one for me is over 2 1/2 hour ride in Fort Myers FL. I hate driving. ... probably have a heart attack driving there. ... LOL ... i'll consider it at later time

Here some info on calcium scan for people

=====================

Initially, coronary calcium assessment with CT was made possible with the development of the electron-beam CT scanner in the late 1980’s. The speed of this machine was much higher than that of existing scanners. The high speed made it possible to “freeze” heart motion to allow measurements of calcium in the coronary arteries.

Lately, ultrafast spiral CT has been used to assess coronary calcium. This technique makes the scanning time very short. Often a scanning length of around 10 seconds is used.

Based on a number of studies, the following definitions are used to relate the coronary artery calcium score to the extent of atherosclerotic coronary artery disease:

Coronary calcium score 0: No identifiable plaque. Risk of coronary artery disease very low (<5%)
Coronary calcium score 1-10: Mild identifiable plaque. Risk of coronary artery disease low (<10%)
Coronary calcium score 11-100: Definite, at least mild atherosclerotic plaque. Mild or minimal coronary narrowings likely.
Coronary calcium score 101-400: Definite, at least moderate atherosclerotic plaque. Mild coronary artery disease highly likely. Significant narrowings possible
Coronary calcium score > 400: Extensive atherosclerotic plaque. High likelihood of at least one significant coronary narrowing.

When interpreting coronary artery calcium score, it is very important to consider age and gender. For example, 50% of white males aged 70 have a calcium score higher than 14,5 and 50% of white females aged 70 have a calcium score above 13.

 

[Gondwanaland]

It just occurred to that a biotin deficiency might have played a role in my carotid calcification (+genes). As you may know B5 and Biotin compete for the same transporters/absorption. B5 had transporter exclusivity and promoted more calcification than desired. Add to it my warfarin course when my body wasn't producing K2

 

[prioris]

My TC/HDL rates are
Currently 2.45
One year ago 2.82
2 yrs ago 3.42
3 yrs ago 2.32

Still I have full developed plaque in both carotids.

No processed foods, trans fats or refined oils since 2009.

If I had to point out culprits it would be full fat dairy.

I have the genetics for high HDL, but also for CVD.

Arrrgghhhh. Well hopefully we find the magic bullet for our situation before it takes us out. I will just add stuff. I take high dose vitamin K2 once a day. I'll add the Gamma E too. I don't eat much dairy. a little bit here and there. You really mean A1 casein is more inflammatory. Studies say A2 Milk is better.

 

[pamojja]

I have only one US from one year ago (one non-obstructive, the other one will hopefully turn into non-obstructive with time).

That's already good in the sense that you don't really know where it goes.. Normal max. CIMT in defined by < 0.9 mm. My experience with it has been 0.13 mm beginning of 2012, 1.3 mm end of 2012, which most likely could be explained by the angiologist putting the decimal at the wrong place the first time, or in fact from the suffered severe chronic bronchitis that whole year (which brought my COPD diagnosis, non-symptomatic though). End of 2014 1.9 mm, incidentally early that year for the first time in 6 years my symptoms of intermittent claudication (PAD) ceased completely! End of 2018 1.8 mm, at last a turn around?

So with only one US you know really know very little. Also it has been the combined experience of the TrackYourPlaque forum, where they use yearly CAC scores to assess if their anti-plaque regimen is working, that it is very common for soft vulnerable plaque to calcify and even increase the first year, before regression starts.

Add to it my warfarin course when my body wasn't producing K2

Good lead. Here an example of a personal detective story with full success:

http://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=My_Story

 

[Gondwanaland]

I take high dose vitamin K2 once a day

I don't because it generates inflammatory citokynes for me, I would have to add a cocktail like yours with Nattokinase and Serrapeptidase, but I alwyas get caught in some sorf of snowball effect... But I do have something up my sleeve right now to try out soon.

You really mean A1 casein is more inflammatory. Studies say A2 Milk is better.

Unfortunately it was no typo. The A2 casein from buffala (which was the one I tried) is much higher in vit A than others which have more unconverted B-carotenes. Excess vit A (I might have some vit A toxicity from Accutane, yay Big Pharma!) shoots uric acid up in the roof.

I forgot to add that a biotin deficiency has an extremely detrimental effect on lysine metabolism.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Here an example of a personal detective story with full success:

http://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=My_Story

Thanks, bookmarked to read later!

 

[prioris]

I don't because it generates inflammatory citokynes for me, I would have to add a cocktail like yours with Nattokinase and Serrapeptidase, but I alwyas get caught in some sorf of snowball effect... But I do have something up my sleeve right now to try out soon.

Unfortunately it was no typo. The A2 casein from buffala (which was the one I tried) is much higher in vit A than others which have more unconverted B-carotenes. Excess vit A (I might have some ivt A toxicity from Accutane, yay Big Pharma!) shoots uric acid up in the roof.

I forgot to add that a biotin deficiency has an extremely detrimental effect on lysine metabolism.

Oh! So your weren't talking about A2 milk casein protein but vitamin A. It is A1 casein protein in cow milk that has the toxin in it.

I was reading a body building forum a couple days ago and someone mentioned having difficulty taking K2 also. Since K2 is synthetic, it is kind of difficult to tell why this is. I remember hearing those stories on coconut oil and liver problems which puzzled me for years. It all made sense when I realized the saturated fats connection to fatty liver disease.