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How do we stop heart disease (Atherosclerosis, Arteriolosclerosis, Arteriosclerosis, calcification)

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by prioris, May 9, 2017.

  1. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    How do we stop heart disease (Atherosclerosis,Arteriolosclerosis,Arteriosclerosis,calcification, endothelian dysfunction, calcification of heart valve etc)
    This thread is an attempt to find an answer to that question.

    General

    From very limited data available, it says that people with ME/CFIDS will die of heart failure or cancer about 20+ years earlier than other people.

    The core problem with heart disease endothelian dysfunction which causes inflammation in arteries which in turn attract plaque and calcification. The heart valves can calcify too. There can be other problems but I am ready to die when those problems come about anyway. For me, my objective is to avoid becoming too disabled and be able to take care of myself until the day I die.


    Finding Serrapeptase and Nattokinase

    I am 62 year old male. Around 15 years ago, I got to the point where I could barely walk. My arms and legs hurt. In the back of my mind I thought, I may have peripheral artery disease but I did not know what I could do. It also indicated that my risk for heart attack was 5 to 6 times higher. At some point I bit the bullet and confronted it. I researched for an answer for some period of time. I came across lumbrokinase studies in China. It was an enzyme that prevented heart attacks and strokes. Later I came across studies by Neiper on Serrapeptase in cleaning the arteries. I also came across Nattokinase. I did not have any ideas on dosage so I went high dosage on both (Serrapeptase 300,000 and Nattokinase 120,000 per day) and split the dosage up to 3 times a day. After one month, my peripheral artery disease symptoms disappeared. I took dosage for another 2 months then went on maintenance. i did try Nattokinase and Serrapeptase alone but it wasn't sufficient. I had to combine both and lowered to maintenance dose (40,000,20,000 per day) for many years.

    The only symptom remaining was that if I over exercised my thighs and it didn't take much, I would get pain in the thighs and would take a couple days to stop feeling pain I couldn't identify what that problem was. I could exercise my other muscles and I wouldn't feel that. Just my thigh muscles. I was thinking that maybe the smaller arteries didn't heal. I don't know Never affected my daily living except if I stooped up and down and put muscle constant exertion on my legs where I build up lactic acid. Tried creatine to resolve it. So I moved on.

    In the last year or so, I moved my maintenance dose to more varying levels because if the dose was too small, I would feel pain in my leg. So I will go to 120,000 for Serrapeptase at times for a dose. The Nattokinase I won't go over 40,000 because there is a limit to what it can do so I stick around 20,000. Each person needs to ballpark what i right for them at any given time and must be taken on empty stomach. I find it takes 15-20 minutes for me to absorb then I can eat.

    I don't go to doctors so I have no idea what all my arteries look like. For all I know, I could drop dead at any moment. Many heart attacks are sudden and unexpected. I just hope it is quick. Of course, many other things could cause my ending. I don't plan on having any bypass surgery or anything to try to save myself. Bypass and stents make implementing natural solutions harder and only delay the inevitable. It is a financial boom to doctors.

    NITRIC OXIDE

    Supplements that promote nitric oxide are very limited in what they can do due to the rate limiting factor. In studies, supplementation did not stop arteriosclerosis. It will make the arteries a little more flexible hence bring down blood pressure so take some stress off arteries but does not stop the underlying disease progression. It's just buying a little more time at best I think. It works well superficially in that it brings blood pressure down and keeps doctors from suggesting Statin drugs but for me, that just doesn't cut it if it is not stopping progression of arteriosclerosis. Many supplements help with nitric oxide.



    INFLAMMATION

    I don't see the enzymes as a solution. I see it as just another tool. The underlying cause will be inflammation. As we age, the inflammation process can pick up steam. Having a disease will make inflammation worse also. If the inflammation is not addressed, enzymes will not be enough especially post 60 years old.

    The best write up on inflammation has been by Dr Sinatra

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3-website-hd/resources/web/pdfs/sin-good-news-about-cholesterol-0317.pdf

    Here are the key points

    Cholesterol is not culprit. French averaged 250 cholestrol level

    You want no more than .8 mg/dL of CRP in your system, and any amount over that signals that your inflammatory process has gone into overdrive and you’re in a state of inflammation overload. In multiple studies, CRP has been identified as a potent predictor of future cardiovascular events in otherwise healthy men and women—one that’s far more reliable than elevated cholesterol levels. For example, one study of CRP in 28,000 American women determined that CRP (and not cholesterol) was the best indicator of cardiovascular risk. And, by the way, high CRP levels also predicted greater risk for men.


    LIMIT, OR BETTER YET ELIMINATE, SUGAR
    Sugar contributes to inflammation of the arterial walls by generating an insulin spike. When insulin spikes, it damages the endothelial lining of blood vessels, thus leading to heart attack or stroke.


    AVOID TRANS FATTY ACIDS
    The unnatural trans fatty acids used in processed foods ignite inflammation,
    raise Lp(a) (a highly inflammatory form of cholesterol), promote cholesterol oxidation, and lower beneficial HDL cholesterol

    KEEP YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE IN THE NORMAL RANGE
    High blood pressure damages arterial walls, leading to arterial damage and
    atherosclerosis. It can also enlarge the heart, creating an extra oxygen demand. So, to keep inflammation at bay, you want to maintain normal blood
    pressure levels.

    AVOID
    UNNECESSARY RADIATION
    X-rays and other medical procedures that use radiation have the potential to
    damage the sensitive lining of arterial walls. So, ask your doctor if the tests that he or she is requesting are truly necessary, or can be replaced with diagnostic tools that won’t expose

    MANAGE YOUR STRESS LEVELS
    Stress hormones promote inflammation, as well as arterial constriction, high blood pressure, increased heart rate, cholesterol oxidation, and blood clotting. Acute stress, such as anger, can cause heart attack or stroke.


    4 powerful nutrients that can help you maintain good cardiovascular health

    If you’re over 60 or on a statin drug, I recommend increasing your CoQ10 intake to 100 to 200 mg daily.

    I'd also recommend dividing the dosages, taking half of your daily CoQ10 in the morning and the rest in the afternoon. That’s because when CoQ10 is taken twice a day, as opposed to one, the blood levels are much higher. That’s also the same for many other heart vitamins.

    L-carnitine
    L-carnitine, a water-soluble nutrient produced from the amino acids lysine and methionine, is found in all living tissue. It helps deliver extra oxygen to blocked arteries. It also prevents the production of toxic fatty acid and helps circulation problems, as it improves blood flow by supporting better use of oxygen in the tissues.

    How much L-carnitine should you take?
    Take 400–1,200 mg in divided dosages, depending upon your clinical status. Start at the low end of the dosage scale and work up until you achieve the desired effect. Like CoQ10, L-carnitine may require fine-tuning to obtain the optimal therapeutic blood level.

    Magnesium
    Magnesium is essential to healthy heart function, yet low magnesium is one of the most underdiagnosed electrolyte abnormalities in clinical practice today.
    There is a direct relationship between low magnesium and high blood pressure. Over time, low magnesium levels may predispose the interior of your vessels to contract (go into spasm) and, eventually, high blood pressure can result. Magnesium can come to the rescue of contracted blood vessels and even reverse some of the damage.

    How much magnesium should you take?
    To replenish low magnesium levels, take 400–800 mg of magnesium daily. Although
    magnesium oxide is a common form used in many supplements, I have found it is not easily soluble or well absorbed by the body. I recommend magnesium citrate, taurinate, or orotate.

    D-ribose
    Investigators believe that under certain cardiac conditions—especially during ischemic episodes like angina and heart attack when the heart is deprived of oxygen—there’s a profound depression of the high energy compound, ATP. With a drop in ATP, the heart struggles to pump.
    However, when oxygen-starved hearts receive supplemental D-ribose, energy recovery and diastolic function often return to normal in several days or less.
    How much D-ribose should you take?
    Depending upon your own particular situation, I recommend taking a total of 10–15 grams of D-ribose daily. Take in divided dosages of 5 grams each with meals.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vitamin K2

    Vitamin K2 is supplemented in two forms MK-4 and MK-7.

    http://omegavia.com/how-to-choose-the-right-vitamin-k2-supplement/
    You need both MK-4 and MK-7 (particularly MK-4)
    These are very different molecules with different structures and different functions.

    Based on all of the above, you could make a compelling argument that MK-4 is much more important than MK-7.

    Also discussion at
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...amin-k-2-mk-4-or-mk7-helped-you.15605/page-12

    Here is Chris MasterJohn link on vitamin K2
    https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

    OTHER

    Enough Vitamin D3 is important for K2 utilization. Bio available silica is critical to curing brittle bones. Look at the back label of Jarrow's Ultra Bone Up for bone cofactors. Borax (boron) is important nutrient for parathyroid gland which controls blood calcium levels.

    I've looked into calcium scans and decided that they have their limitations. They really don't give the true status of calcification from what I have been able to research since the scans won't detect all the calcium forms. There are different scans and can be cost prohibitive or non-accessible.

    I usually try to cure something before posting but this is one of those exceptions. Unless I had a home method for figuring out whether I am removing calcium from arteries. I have no reliable method for seeing if something is working. I don't know the degree of blockages i have either. Arterial blockage especially on larger arteries is silent so not easy to know. If I get abnormally very tired then probably the end is near. All I can do is put as many known factors in my favor as possible.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
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  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @prioris - This is a good summary. I'd add one thing we can do something about, and that is homocysteine levels. High levels are associated with heart disease and folate, B6 and B12 can help reduce high homocysteine. Here's Dr. Sinatra on homocysteine levels, high and low: https://www.drsinatra.com/the-ideal-homocysteine-level-for-cardiac-health -

    Low levels can create their own set of problems, which I didn't know before. My level has always been low, and possibly too low on Sinatra's scale, will have to check my test results.
     
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  3. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    Prioris, that data set is to small to draw conclusions from. However, some elevated risk would not surprise me. I`d say get a echo every second year if your in the risk zone, and live healthily whilst ill.
     
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  4. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Some thoughts ...

    I agree Marky90. the data set is flimsy about the 20+ years but that is all there is. I grasp for straws.

    There are things like aspirin and Ginko Biloba that are essentially blood thinners. They should never be used with Nattokinase and Serrapeptase which are are essentially clot busters and NOT blood thinners as many doctors paint with their broad brush. There are many other supplements that Ginko Biloba could be adverse to so something to not take lightly I think. I personally would stay away from such blood thinners unless used in isolation due to potential adverse affects. They seem to help with small tiny arteries but they don't necessarilu heal the underlying problem.

    The reason why you can't use vitamin K2 with Coumadin is because Coumadin depletes vitamin K from the blood. That's how it actually works. Scary. Nattokinase and Serrapepotase can replace Coumadin as a safer alternative but there won't be any studies on it due to the money at stake.

    EDTA was one of the original treatments used to help clear arteries. One of the problems with that is cost and the requirement for many chelating visits. Unless a treatment can be done at home and affordable, it simply isn't practical. This still doesn't address underlying problem either. They will have to keep coming back forever. There is oral EDTA but that it may only addresses plaque and it requires strict diet when doing it. It still is good because it is a home treatment and affordable. The enzymes don't require this diet inconvenience or remove minerals from the body.

    Linus Pauling Vitamin C/Lysine protocol has had it success but it only addresses plaque and not calcification. Plus plaque will come back again after 6 months so it needs to be done all the time. The good thing about this therapy is that it can be done at home and is affordable. Not all people would be able to tolerate Vitamin C. There is anedoctal evidence that it has cleared blockages but if inflammation gets too out of control, it wil lose the battle. Every person has their unique set of factors at any given time hence it will have varying success.

    Here is the ingredient label of one product which follows his protocol

    Each Capsule Contains (Medicinal Ingredients):
    Vitamin C (magnesium ascorbate, ascorbic acid) 400 mg
    Magnesium (magnesium ascorbate) 42 mg
    L-Lysine (L-Lysine hydrochloride) 260 mg
    Recommended adult dose: 5 capsules once or twice daily or as directed by a health care practitioner.

    The biggest problem with K2 is that most discussion on vitamin K2 focus is on MK-7 and MK-4 gets ignored. Most studies have used MK-4 and very few MK-7. There is still scant scientific data on MK-7. The way it gets promoted, you would think otherwise. The other thing is that both are synthetic forms. I don't know if it makes any difference. I read a post by someone who took vitamin K2 MK-7 for a long time and they still ended up needing bypass surgery. It didn't prevent calcification. It is still open to debate whether MK-4 will do the job. I'm not holding my breath. I'll focus on the big picture and not just one thing. Green Pasture butter oil gets promoted for Wesson Price Active X ingredient K2 MK-4 but it has very little MK-4 in it although it is natural but really expensive way to get MK4 vitamin. I can't find the average amount but I did write it down some where.

    There is debate on Vitamin A between Wesson Price and Mercola. How much is good for each of us likely varies. I err on the low side. As far as what our vitamin D2,5 level should be, I have no opinion yet.
     
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  5. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    As I wrote in my introduction thread:

    TrackYourPlaque is now found at https://www.cureality.com/. It's a paid for forum. Long ago Dr. William Davis made a trial with his approach and found, with added vitamin D3 to the mix it really potentiated. He recommends to maintain a 25(OH)D3 serum level between 60-80 ng/ml. The main point recommended was to initially get a yearly CAC score to measure the success of the approach, adapt if necessary, and until the usual 30% yearly increase in CAC score is reduced. One member there was especially fond of very high dose K2, which he got in bulk. Until he started to produce it himself: http://www.k-vitamins.com/ (loads of vitamin K studies there). He is still very successful in reversing CAC score.

    Personally didn't do CAC scoring, since I had to consider myself in the highest risk group anyway..
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  6. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    This is what Linus Pauling recommended, for example it his '86 book:
    Additionally recommended l-lysine at 6 g/d for CVD. I'm sure nowadays he would include vitamin D3, K2, more magnesium, CoQ10 and some other amino acids too. Also only took the low dose for vitamin E he recommends (balanced with other tocopherol and tocotrienols), and the dose for vitamin A I reached only recently, when I found it would help with my infrequent psoriasis outbreaks (and by the way, my serum retinol levels are still in the middle of normal range).

    At the following thread-link the supplements discussed at Cureality:

    https://www.cureality.com/forum/topics.aspx?ID=18580
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  7. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    great posts pemojja.i am glad to see you resisted the surgical and pharma solution. you put up a fight. i like that. if you didn't, i don't think you'd be posting here today.

    do you know if your arteries were calcified at age 41

    what kind and how high a K2 dose was that person taking to reverse CAC score

    i am taking Relentless 15000 umg MK4 and 60 mg MK7 per day for now.

    what dosages of D3 does williams suggest

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Natural K2 is very expensive
    Three ounces of pasteurized butter e.g. Green Pastures contains only about 15mcg of vitamin k2.
    Cheeses highest in K2 are Gouda and Brie, which contain about 75 mcg per ounce.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is some additional info
    Linus Pauling protocol + K
    http://www.paulingtherapy.com/

    # This link has the enhancements to Pauling protocol
    http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/excerpt_chp7.pdf

    Pauling Therapy Summary

    Therapeutic
    Vitamin C (6,000
    to 18,000 mg)
    Lysine (5,000 to 6,000 mg)

    Pauling Therapy Enhancements

    Proline (250 to 2,000 mg)
    Coenzyme Q10 (100 to 300 mg)
    Magnesium (150 to 1,500 mg)

    Preventives
    Vitamin C (3,000
    to 10,000 mg)
    Lysine (2,000 to 4,000 mg)


    Follow Pauling’s other heart and cardiovascular
    recommendations

    Vitamin E - 800 to 3,200 IU
    Vitamin A - 20,000 to 40,000 IU
    Super B-Complex - 1 or 2
    Daily multiple vitamin and mineral
    Drink plenty of water


    Additional Enhancements
    Eliminate trans fatty acids from the diet
    Introduce unprocessed Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils
    Eat salt, but only unrefined salt
    Reduce manganese intake
    Eliminate ordinary sugar and refined carbohydrates
    Supplement with vitamin K
    Avoid supplemental calcium
    Supplement with the amino acids taurine, arginine and carnitine (1 to 3 grams)
    Supplement with vitamin D3 (2,000 IU), especially in the winter months
    Supplement with melatonin (3 to 6 mg) before bedtime


    The study illustrated that a low level of vitamin E in the blood was more than twice as predictive of heart attack than either high cholesterol or high blood pressure. Inverse correlation between plasma vitamin E and mortality from ischemic heart disease in cross-cultural epidemiology.

    Why protocol may not work
    http://www.hearttechnology.com/exceptions.html

    There is another problem . . .
    Former severely ill patients begin feeling so well over time that they feel completely cured and stop taking their high doses of vitamin C. Stopping the Pauling therapy (high dose vitamin C and lysine) seems to invariably return the person to the condition they were in before starting the Pauling therapy, in about six months. We believe that the very high dosage can be lessened over time, but we don't know by how much. It is clear that vitamin C should not be stopped altogether, and continuing high dosages is cheap "insurance." (This problem should not be an issue for people taking these supplements for prevention and were feeling well to begin with.)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  8. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Yes, through MRI and multiple ultra-sounds.

    Differently. In 2009 he posted taking only 1mg K2-mk-7 (along with most would consider a massive overdose on all vitamins, minerals and amino acids, ala Pauling), and already at that time he had reduced his CAC score from 889 to 570 (Agatson score). In 2011 he posted his updated intake: 10mg of K1, 10mg of K2-mk7.

    Then he came up with his idea of producing his own vitamin K supplement, and suggested 50mg of K2-mk4, 10mg of K1 and 1mg K2-mk7 in one capsules, of which he himself intended to take 2. It was me at that time suggesting half that dose in one pill (which he ended up doing). Because I guessed he would find a larger customer base, if his product would use not more what has actually been tested in studies, and not the supra-physiological doses he had in mind and took at that time. Then I left the paid TrackYourPlaque forum and therefore have no idea how his CAC decreased further. Maybe you could find something about that in his story at his webside?

    For economic reasons I've taken about 1 cap of Konzentrated-K daily only, most of the time (an other reason, for suggested half the dose, ;) otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford..).

    As much as necessary to reach a serum 20(OH)D3 of between 60 and 80 ng/ml. For most that means 10.000 IUs as starting dose, then retest after 3 month to adjust the dose.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Lysine is causing me vasoconstriction which only relieves after a high arginine meal ( @Violeta )
     
  10. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Most take lysine and arginine (or a mix of its precursors: AAKG, citrulline malate) together with the ascorbic acid powder in a glass of water (on Pauling's protocol). Maybe that way, and adjusting doses, it could work for you too?
     
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  11. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    You probably meant 15.000 mcg MK4 and 60 mcg MK7. Note, that the doses in KoncentredK are all in Milligram: 1mg = 1.000 mcg.

    Per cupsule:
    25 mg K2-mk4 = 25.000 mcg
    5 mg K1 = 5.000 mcg
    0.5 mg K2-mk7 = 500 mcg
    2 mg Astaxanthin
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @prioris have you looked into aged garlic for endothelial health?
     
  13. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    yeah. i had been studying that a little. i'm preoccupied with other things now so put that aside until later time.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Would you have a reference for that?
     
  15. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    There is a recent article (March 2017) in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology which may be of interest to you. Here's a link to the article.

    Also, there were several great speakers recently on the Food Revolution Summit, including Dr. Kim Williams, past president of the American College of Cardiology. I think you can pay to access the talks. Here's a link.

    Best,
     
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  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Some info on the 1st table is wrong (re coconut oil and eggs).
     
  17. Orla

    Orla Senior Member

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    If people are interested in this it is worth looking up Dr Esselstyn's recommendations. He put people on a very low-fat diet that helped reverse some of the heart-disease in patients. I have one of his books, but there are a lot of talks by him on the internet. There is one here (I don't know if I have seen this but I have clicked through it and it seems to contain a lot of the main information)

    He is very strict. I am not doing this 100% but generally only eat oils if eating out or elsewhere. I don't use fats in my own cooking. He also recommends eating leafy greens/and/or some other veg (beetroot) 5 times a day.

    On whether low-fat diets were really debunked Plant Positive on You Tube is very good. https://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition/featured They are very detailed pieces with references. I have listened to a lot of them but must listen again.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
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  18. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    The only problem I have with low fat is - I've been vegan since 10 years of age and avoided any fat like the plaque - with 41 I ended up with a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta! Changed to low carb/high fat (healthy fats only, like olive, coconut, ghee..) still vegetarian diet (incl. eggs, cheese and occasional fish) and recovered again. However, there simply never is a one diet which fits all in my opinion. Experiment and Test again. Don't guess and believe studies which don't reproduced your situation and preconditions a bid.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  19. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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    Dr. Kim Williams, who I mentioned in my previous post, discusses that too much fat, animal products and sugar are all harmful to the cardiovascular system. He, himself is vegan.

    When I ate whole foods, no oils, no animal products, my lipid labs got worse. In trying to figure out why, I discovered that I was eating some foods that had a higher glycemic index (dates, melons and short grain brown rice). I cut the dates down to one a day, switched to basmati or long grain rice and cut back on the fruits. My lipid levels improved. Oh, and I added in some olive oil....mainly because I can't eat nuts or seeds and I feel it is important to have some fats with my food to better absorb some nutrients.

    Like Orla posted....Dr Esselstyn promotes a no oil, no animal products diet....and there are other doctors that are similar, but not necessarily that strict....Dr. Ornish, Dr. Barnard, Dr. Fuhrman. Dr. McDougall is that strict.

    I wonder if pamojja is like me....maybe having problems with the glycemic index of foods causing problems???

    At any rate, my cardiologist and I are happy with my current labs....I eat whole foods, mostly plants, a small amount of olive oil and fish on occasion. I eat no sugars or refined foods. I figure my lipid levels are about as good as they are going to get and my main concern is this blasted CFS.

    If you want to read my blog post on my lipids you can find that here.

    All the best,
     
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  20. Orla

    Orla Senior Member

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    I'm currently on a drug that can increase bad cholesterol (LDL) :( I hope it doesn't have that effect on me, but as I am desperate for getting some decent sleep unless my next set of blood tests are very bad I will probably stay on it for a while anyway.
     

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